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In today’s episode, Joe talks to Rene Morozowich, a freelancer in the WordPress space who works with small and medium sized business and individual projects in building and managing service-based websites. She’s a Business Intelligence (BI) and SQL developer, a programmer, and an instructor at a community college who teaches credit and non-credit classes.

Rene shares her freelancing journey, from building a website from scratch, overhauling and managing existing websites, to offering client marketing services and how not to overwhelm your leads with your marketing campaign.

What to Listen For:

  • 00:00 Intro
  • 03:21 Welcome to the pod, Rene!
  • 04:26 The 24-hour WordFest 2021
  • 06:19 Regrouping care plan for clients 
  • 09:08 No immediate plans to develop an agency
  • 11:29 Freelancing started with one client
  • 15:17 Having good clients but not a good fit long-term
  • 21:14 An expensive learning curve
  • 24:24 Creating proposals with varying packages depending on client needs
  • 30:07 Stop paying to market cold leads

  • 35:53 Don’t overwhelm potential clients with your email campaign
  • 40:15 Why people get hesitant in doing campaign automations
  • 44:22 Creating campaign headlines needs practice and some testing
  • 47:13 Best practices to trim down cold leads
  • 51:54 When people sign up for something, they expect something
  • 53:45 Find Rene online

Episode Resources:

Podcast Transcript:

Joe Howard: [00:00:00] Hey folks, Joe Howard here. All right. So before we get started with this week’s episode, WP M our, our community, I just said community dot WP, mrr.com. Uh, I was. Vacation last week. So I was totally off slack. I was kind of out of the community last week. We do have some big plans, changes to the community, just based on feedback, based on our goals and our mission of the community.

So you’ll see some changes there in the next few weeks. I have those planned out for the most part now, and we’ll be executing on those coming up here. But, um, just kind of diving back into that this week. Um, but Renee who’s on today’s episode is going to be doing an AMA there. So she had a ton of really actionable and solid content around email marketing, how to make sure deliverability is solid subject lines.

You want to send out broadcast campaign emails, or how do you do automation? Which one should you lean towards a ton of stuff there? So if you have follow up questions after today’s episode, just go to CUNY. Yeah, WP mrr.com, uh, and ask her some questions there in the comments. Uh, w the MRR summit, again, I was out last week.

So not a ton of updates as of right now. Cause I got to dive back into things this week. But one quick update is we have, I believe 95% or so of speakers who were asked to speak this year have confirmed. So very exciting. We may have one or two slots still left. Plug and play into, but the, for the most part, we are good to go.

Um, so Brian and I are really excited about, about that, and we’re going to be starting to move forward with all that stuff, getting that content ready for you. So community WP, mrr.com. When you sign up for the community, you’re automatically registered for this year’s summit virtual summit to September 21st, 22nd and 23rd.

All right. That is it for the preamble. Let’s get to today’s episode. I got the chance today to chat with Renee Baracka witch. So Renee is a freelancer. She does website management. She does email marketing. She does website builds a lot of the usual stuff you hear around what freelancers are working on.

When it comes to WordPress, I kind of dived a lot into the care plan stuff for the website management subscription stuff. Cause I was very interested in. What it’s like for a solo person to do a lot of that. So we spent the first 10, 15 minutes of this episode. Talk more about that. And then we kind of shifted more into the email marketing piece of things, which is really what I wanted to talk to her about.

Cause she knows just a ton around email marketing halfway through our conversation actually started telling her about some of the things. Do with WP buffs in terms of emails we send. And she helped out a little bit in terms of some suggestions about how to personalize your emails a little bit better, and how to just make her email more valuable for folks who have allowed us access to their inbox.

How do we respect their amongst smart? How do we provide them more value? So I learned a ton personally, in this episode, so cool. Let’s get to the podcast episode with Renee Marasco, which enjoy today’s episode. All right. We are live this week with rename a Rosa, which Renee reflects a little bit about what you do in the WordPress space.

Rene Morozowich: [00:03:29] There you go. Thanks so much for having me. So I am a freelancer. Um, I work outside of Pittsburgh in the suburbs and I work with small businesses. Um, solo people. Um, medium sized businesses. Sometimes it depends. Um, I do a little bit of work for other agencies, but I build websites, maintain websites, and on occasion I will help somebody finish up a website that somebody else has started, but that’s, that’s not the best thing ever, but, um, I like to be helpful.

So I teach some classes at the community college. Um, and I also run the WordPress meetup along with Terry and, uh, we haven’t had a meetup in a while. Um, but hopefully we’ll get back to that too. Yeah. And, uh, I like to speak at word camps. Uh, I spoke at word Fest recently. Uh, so all that, all that kind of stuff, all the things I do, all the things.

Joe Howard: [00:04:17] Nice. Very cool. Yeah, I know that. So you’re a WordPress Pittsburgh meetup organizers speak at work camps and you speak at, I guess, WordPress related events, like word fast. How, uh, how was word Fest this year? How was the 24 hour word Fest?

Rene Morozowich: [00:04:32] It was so nice. Everybody was so, so, so nice. Um, sometimes I do a thing where I.

I think I’m going to do something and then I sign up for it. And then I think, oh no, why did I do that? So this happened at this time, um, my talk was actually, you know, not WordPress related, but more mental health related. So it was about grief. And I had said that I could do it live. And, you know, as I got closer, I thought, oh my gosh, why did I do that?

But it went really well. It was a very nice, uh, well received and, and again, just the community was really nice and supportive slack group, everybody there. That was good. I’m glad I did it.

Joe Howard: [00:05:04] Yeah, very cool. I think that’s the perfect audience to give, to give a talk like that on the WordPress community in general, it’s pretty welcoming and open, but definitely like a WordPress community is like super mental health focus.

So, uh, and especially. Well, I think there’s probably a little more pressure when you’re giving it live, as opposed to like giving it a prerecorded where you can maybe like edit it or, you know, practice it a little bit.

Rene Morozowich: [00:05:29] You can cry, did a recording. Also. I did a recording on Monday that I had spoken Friday and, um, yeah, it took me five, five takes to do the recording, but I like to do it just in case, you know, I get hit by a bus or, or anything like that.

You know, it’s also good to just have a recording or for people who can.

Joe Howard: [00:05:44] Yeah, you’re better prepared than I am. I usually am doing things last minute and kind of like it’ll work out fine, but, uh, it’s probably, I should be as prepared as, as you are so cool. Thank you for hopping on this week on the pod, I’m excited to talk to you.

I always like chatting with people who do, um, like care plans and maintenance work, but especially as freelancers and people who are really doing a lot of that. Themselves. So tell I the first that’s the first thing I kind of wanted to dig into before we do a little bit more email marketing talks. Is you less, some great notes about stuff you want to talk about there though?

That sounds really cool too, but care plan stuff as an individual, uh, how has, how has that been since you’ve started doing care plans?

Rene Morozowich: [00:06:27] Um, it’s always a learning curve. So I recently just learned that I should be billing, um, on the same day, each month, all of my clients on the same day and also should be billing.

So I just started doing. Uh, biannual billing. So if you don’t want to pay monthly, I let you pay twice a year. And I did maybe six people wanted to do that. So that was fine. And I set them all up, but all in different months. And then I got to the point where I was like, oh no, I don’t know who’s coming and who’s going, and I stopped and regrouped.

And so now you get a bill in January and a bill in July. Um, just keeping that more consistent. Um, I’ve been doing a lot of work with like systems and processes. I’m in a slack group where we like to talk about, um, you know, documenting our business and all that good stuff. So, uh, I started setting up some of those things as well, and that’s been really helpful and kind of just keeping everything again, like systematized.

Um, so who gets what, and when I do a little bit of hosting as well, so you know how that works. And then I started working with. I’m kind of an assistant, I guess. Um, so it it’s forced me to, you know, document things so that I can explain things clearly to her. So she understands. Um, but also just, it makes you think about going forward about, um, you know, how many hosts am I going to support and what are the types of, you know, how many page builders am I going to support or things like that, or, you know, do you get to a point maybe where you don’t take on other sites, only sites that you build?

So. You know, you kind of get to a certain point where now you start to think about, um, what’s next and how do I do this? Well, uh, in bulk, I guess.

Joe Howard: [00:08:04] Yeah. Tell me about, uh, like, uh, charging twice a year. What happens if someone signs up in March? Do they pay for like March through July initially? And then they go on?

Rene Morozowich: [00:08:15] I think so. Yes. I think that’ll be the plan. Yeah, just a kind of a couple months or, you know, depending on, yeah. Okay. We can kind of just work it in there, but, um, anything rolling in for the people, for the people who make sense to do hosting for some people just want a one stop shop. They don’t want to have, you know, 50 different logins and things like that.

And really like, you’re answering your questions anyway, but I’m not going to call it the host. When you have a problem, they’re gonna call me anyway. So kind of directing people and, you know, just making it easier on them.

Joe Howard: [00:08:45] Yeah. Yeah, we do. I think making it easy on yourself is like one of the most important things you can do, especially when you’re working solo.

Because if things get complex, you know, a few people may be able to come in and solve this big problem. But like, I don’t know about you. I won’t speak for you, but for me, if something gets too complicated, like I want to have to do it, or I want to do it. So I need to keep things simple. Definitely for myself.

Cool. And it sounds like your, to have plans to kind of stay doing things yourself, or you said you hired a kind of one person. Is that like the direction you’re going in or are you just kind of like that maybe one person’s fine for now?

Rene Morozowich: [00:09:19] Yeah, I’m not sure. So I taught a class, um, I’ve been teaching a non-credit class.

I teach a credit class and a non-credit class at the community college and I taught a non-credit class and there was a woman in my class. Spring. And, um, she was really great. She was on the ball and, um, you know, she was just taking the course because she wanted to learn. She was stay-at-home mom had a couple of young kids and afterwards I reached out to her and I said like, Hey, do you want to do some other work?

You know, just a couple hours a week here and there, but it’s, I think a good experience for, because that’s a totally different thing also, right. Doing the work yourself versus. Showing someone else how to do the work and then letting them do it and just how they sometimes do things differently than you would and the things that you don’t think of.

So I guess kind of like building that management skill is, is yet another business skill, but I don’t know. I don’t think I want to get really big. I don’t think I really want to be that person who, um, you know, has a big agency and does all the things. So I think. Um, actually my next step is, um, I just signed up today for some specializing coaching.

So I’ll be thinking about that. Um, in next month I had .

Joe Howard: [00:10:31] Very cool, I think the man there’s so many people in the WordPress space who do like care plans, like website management subscription, and it’s just them, or it’s just them and like maybe a contractor or two or three and they run it. Profitable businesses.

They run stress-free businesses. For the most part, they run businesses that are successful and, you know, often size doesn’t dictate success. I think for a lot of people. It’s actually the opposite. Like they’ll, that’s like, I just want to like do my thing. Like I want to work on it. I want to work on and I don’t want to have to like manage a bunch of people.

So I think that that’s, uh, that’s cool. And to be able to, to be able to get into website management when you don’t have a big team, I think is like really important to talk about because. I care playing stuff is for everybody, it’s not just for a team of a hundred people. It’s like for it to be one person can totally do this.

You know, a little WordPress, you know, you have, you can set up some tools and good systems like you’re setting up and you can totally get into it. So that’s awesome. How long have you been doing care plan work? Is it more of a recent addition or if you’ve been doing it for awhile?

Rene Morozowich: [00:11:33] I started all of this in 2017 and at the time I started working for an agency.

So I took care of their sites. Their sites were kind of. Date of a huge hot mess. So I carefully and all of the sites and migrated them and set them up with like a structure. So that was kinda my first experience. And then as you know, as I grew in one along and started building sites and, you know, just got referrals from other people, I started maintaining sites that I didn’t build.

And, you know, again, you know, maybe that’s not the direction to go forever, but you know, it let me build a nice base. So I guess I’ve been doing it all along, but I do want to say. I was really hesitant at first to do it because I had a, I had this kind of thought of like, Um, I don’t know if you’ve worked in any corporate places before, but I’ve worked at quite a few and I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to be tied to people.

And I was really worried that like, if I took on all these maintenance clients and then I ended up not liking them, that it would be really terrible. Um, but I think what’s happened is, is kind of the opposite. I don’t mind working with, I actually like working with people ongoing. It’s just that I don’t want to work with them.

Any one person for 40 hours a week. It took me a while to realize that. And now that I have it’s good. And I do like when people stay with me, because I like to see that they’re keeping their sites maintained. You know, I did all this work to build a site. If they just go off and do their own thing and never update the site again, it makes me sad.

Joe Howard: [00:13:06] Yeah. I think it’s super, I want to touch back on that point of like working with the client for 40 hours a week because I, I really like the care plan space. I think one of the reasons I really like it is because. Like I had this, I was thinking early on, like, do I want to like, offer like an enterprise level, offering a WP buffs?

Like it’s a good way to generate revenue. Like, you know, big companies will pay you a lot of money for like almost a full time person or like three full-time people. That’s what a lot of the enterprise agencies in the WordPress space do. Right. They have like five clients and they’re all like fortune 500 companies.

Pay them like a hundred thousand dollars a month. And it’s like, okay, there’s our business. But you’re like super tied to that client. And like, you’re almost at like the Beck and call of that client. And I never wanted to do that because I’ve like, you I’ve worked in corporate environments before. And I was like, no, that sounds like literally the reason for not doing it was like almost financially independent.

It was like, I just don’t want it. It’s not the business I want to build. So I’m totally with you and with care plans for the most part, I guess you could do that. All right. Enterprise level offering. I think that’s more like a retainer sort of situation. Like I think sounded like a care plan to like big clients is like a little harder that verbiage, like it’s more retainer kind of language, but the ability to.

Our average care plan is like 200 bucks a month. Like at that level, like you’re not tied to what, like you can work with a few different clients and you can work with people on an ongoing basis. And it’s not like so much that like, people are so tied to you 40 hours a month or 40 hours a week, but you can still kind of work with a variety of clients. So I totally get that.

Rene Morozowich: [00:14:45] When some people come along and you know, you haven’t heard from them in some months and like, Hey, we wanted to add this new feature or do this thing and great. And then you talk with them and you do the thing, and everybody feels good because they have the thing done. And then they go off and go back to their business for a while.

And you don’t hear from them for, and it gets not that I don’t like to hear from my clients, but it’s just that thing of like, working with the same person for some, you know, like working in a business where you have, that’s all, it’s just you and your coach. Yeah. Yeah. I’m with you.

Joe Howard: [00:15:17] Have you, have you worked with any care plan clients?

And I guess you can kind of share what you want to hear, but have you worked with care plan clients who didn’t end up wanting to work with, and then it was like, kind of, it turned out to be a pain in the butt and you had to like find a way to like separate yourself from them or like transition them somewhere else or something.

Rene Morozowich: [00:15:35] I found a couple, a couple of people who I built this before, and then they did not opt in. So that was fine. I’ve had some people where they opted in at first and then left for whatever reason. And then. So that’s kind of nice too, because again, like my, what I really like is keeping good care of your site.

So if you go off and then you don’t update it for three months, and then you come back to me, um, I’m, I’m glad you’re back because then I can clean it back up again, um, that I can make sure that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s good. So that’s a little bit weird, but. Yeah, nobody really. I, there was one client that I did try to fire at one point.

It didn’t work out very well and I still have them. Um, they were they’re nice. Maybe just not a great fit. For me, but it’s okay. Right now we restructured the offering to fit in with my other offerings. It was kind of a one-off situation. So that did help where I didn’t have so many clients doing one off this one off that I, I standardized them into my process in that that has helped.

So, um, but I have learned that when you’re getting rid of people, you need to be really clear because. Cause they don’t want to leave.

Joe Howard: [00:16:50] Yeah, totally. What’s happened to us at WP buffs, for sure. I mean, we’ve probably had not a ton of that happen, but definitely there are memories of like, I don’t know, like three years ago we had a big client, they had like 50 sites with us or something.

So it was like a significant like OneCloud 50 sites. So it was a significant client for us, you know? The probably represented, like, I don’t know, like 10% of our monthly revenue at that point. So it was like, you know, significance and we ended up deciding to let them go. I think restructuring is also a good, maybe better in some cases, because if you can keep that client and keep revenue coming in, but restructure it in a way that just makes more sense to everyone.

That’s good. Reset expectations, you know, all that’s good. Right. We just had to end up separating ourselves in the clients and it was, it was good for everybody. Not as good for our revenue in the short term, but it allows us to. Step back and commit more of our time and energy into like finding clients that were better fits for us.

So I think actually that restructuring and letting go of clients who aren’t good or is, it is a good thing for everybody, including the client who may not be super happy in the short term, but once you’ve restructured and they’re getting better service because they’ve allowed you the space to make changes that are going to be good for you and thus for the client, they’re going to be happier, you know, six months later, as opposed to maybe this month, it’s not.

Yeah. It’s not as good because we’re having to spend time figuring this stuff out. Yeah. I don’t want to do that. I’m the client I’m always right. But like, Hey, I’m doing this for both of us. And so it’s it’s and I think it’s also definitely important as a solo person to be able to do that because it all falls to you, right?

It’s like, if you don’t do it, nobody will. And so you kind of have to make all of the hard choices and hard decisions when you’re that size.

Rene Morozowich: [00:18:37] But it’s kind of like a thing where if you, if you take clients who aren’t a good fit for you. Why are you in business for yourself anyway, um, you know, aren’t you in business for yourself so that you can create a situation where you do your best work and the client is happy.

And then if you’re taking clients that aren’t good fits it does it just doesn’t make sense. There’s a lot of clients out there. There’s a lot of websites. There’s a lot of bad websites. There’s a lot of work. So there is an abundance, you know, so you don’t have to take, you know, I understand everybody’s in a different financial situation, but, um, I don’t believe in the scarcity model, I believe in an abundance sort of mindset.

Joe Howard: [00:19:17] Yeah. I think a lot of people will think they have to take on a client that maybe they don’t necessarily want to work with, especially when they’re early on in their business, because they’re like, I need revenue. Like you’re going to pay me money. Like, okay, whatever you need, I’ll give it to you. I think that at least what we’ve found and I’m sure a lot of people have found this is that if you bring on claims.

Really aren’t a good fit for either you like as a personality type or just the kind of work they need. Isn’t exactly going to work under your model and care plans work because they’re so systemized, right? Because they’re so process driven. Like that’s super important if they’re not going to work in that, they’re probably going to like leave pretty soon after they’re going to their, you know, their churn rate.

If those kinds of clients are going to be really high, you know, their lifetime value is not going to be very high because they don’t stay with you for very long. You’re going to. They’re they’re going to be that client that like, you know, they pay you, you know, whatever, 5% of your revenue every month, but they take up like 20% of your support bandwidth, every one.

So it totally doesn’t even make sense to have them. You’re paying for them to be a client. Like they’re probably not being profitable in that client. So there’s a lot of reasons that, you know, clients when they’re not a good fit, like there’s a lot of reasons why you don’t want to work with them. Not just because they call you a little bit of stress.

There’s like five. I can think of the five reasons, right? They don’t want to, you don’t want to work with them. So the. I think when you’re, I think it’s probably important to stay picky at the beginning and maybe it even goes back to like, like when I started WP buffs, it was like, you know, on the side, like I was working a full-time job.

Like I slowly transitioned into WP buffs and I think it allowed me to like, learn those lessons, um, pretty quickly, uh, and give myself. Space to like, not necessarily have to take on a lot of those clients, although it didn’t always work. Obviously I just told that story that I did, that it didn’t work out, but we learned from it, but to not do that too much and to learn quickly from those mistakes and to like, decide like high-quality clients let’s raise our prices. Let’s go after like, right.

Rene Morozowich: [00:21:14] I think it just takes time. I think you, a lot of times, I think you just don’t know. You don’t know because you don’t have that sort of like intuition. You’re not, not in tune to red flags, really the same way you are later on, like later on, you’re like, you have an eye for them.

You’re like, that’s a red flag and you can see it clearly. But at the beginning you haven’t done this or you haven’t done that and you do want to get experienced. So you take some things on that. Yeah. Maybe in the back of your mind, you think, okay, maybe this might not be a good fit, but I think they’re all really important learning experiences.

All of the things that have happened to me. Um, like one of my first clients I built a website for, and I forgot to ask about additional domains and they had like 30 additional domains at network solutions kind of old. Oh my God. They were using ASP before the WordPress site. Uh, the hours, the hours that I spend on it.

But now. So was it expensive lesson, but you know, it was a lesson.

Joe Howard: [00:22:05] Yeah. I think those expensive and non-expensive lessons have to be kind of like, you have to be ready for those. Like if those have to be built into like your mental state, when you’re starting a business, because they are going to come.

Whether it’s today, whether it’s next week, hell we still have those. Right. All that always happens. So that’s part of, it’s like the learning curve, right? It’s like, if you want to go from like a, to B, like you’re not just going to like poop, like go straight there that people who are listening on the actual podcast can’t see me, but I’m planning like a linear line straight up into the right.

I don’t know which way people anyway, like it dips right before it goes. So it’s like this, like it’s going to get worse before it gets better, but that’s the learning like, that’s how you figure out like how to do it well or how to do it effectively or how to do it profitably or just whatever, you know, your goal is with something, a project.

That’s how you. Eventually, like, get it even like higher degree curves, you know, in the future, because you’re able to like, take those learnings. So, and that like mentally prepare for that is important. I think, I mean, we’re talking about a little bit about mental health, the beginning of this, it’s like, if you’re expecting everything to go perfectly and then nothing goes perfectly, like you’re gonna probably have, um, like mental.

Challenges, because you’re just like, everything’s going to go perfectly. Like, I’m the best. Oh, I’m not the best. I suck at everything a little bit. That’s tough. But if you start off, like, all right, things are maybe going to suck for a little bit. And I’m probably going to suck for a little bit because I’m just learning this, but like, I’ll get better.

And it’s like a baby, right. You know, they crawl and they walk in and they run and eventually they’re running, but you can’t just like, at least most babies don’t go straight to running. So I think that’s important to keep those expectations. Um, you know, set for yourself so that you don’t set yourself up for failure.

Rene Morozowich: [00:23:50] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Joe Howard: [00:23:53] All right. I know we talked about care plan stuff a lot. I was like, oh, definitely. Wanna talk about you on marketing stuff. Once I get started on like website management subscriptions, I get super into it. So, um, I’m on your website right now. Uh, people can just find it@reneemzwdotcomrenemzw.com.

So you do. Um, you know, website management, but you’re also building websites for folks. I guess often you are managing the websites for folks who, uh, whose, um, website you built. You also help people with marketing work. So I guess a lot of the stuff you do in that marketing realm is email marketing. So tell me a little bit about like that part of the process.

Uh, in terms of like specifically email marketing, how you’re helping clients with those, is that a conversation you’re having before you build the site? Or is that a conversation you have as the site is kind of launching and you’re like, okay, like you want to collect some email addresses, you’re going to have an email list.

Here’s kind of emails you may want to sent out. Here’s what we can talk about. X, Y, and Z. What does that process look like?

Rene Morozowich: [00:25:01] I have an initial conversation with someone or, you know, when they fill out a form for whatever it is to inquire what, you know, after we talk, you know, I can kind of determine if they’ll be a good client for email marketing or not.

So not everybody is, you know, I think it’s incorrect to say that like everybody can benefit from me and my marketing. I don’t necessarily think that. So if they do seem like they may benefit from, and I will offer it in the proposal. So I normally do a proposal with different packages. So, you know, this.

Like three different options. This option is, you know, I don’t want to say bare bones, but there’s nothing extra in it. Like this is just what you would need to launch and get where you’re going. Then the next level up would include. Additional things like more revisions, maybe more design, um, you know, additional pages, maybe some different functionality, things like that.

And then sometimes in my third package, I’ll add an email marketing as well. So, um, there’s a lot to set up at the beginning. So, you know, whether it’s, you know, creating a new account, you know, but then doing all of the authentication, um, setting up, you know, the double opt-ins. Uh, doing all the branding and things like that, like in the email marketing system and then doing the integration with the website.

So yeah. How do they sign up, but then also helping the client determine. What they’re signing up for. So people can sign up all day long. We can put popups and, you know, sign up in the footer and at the end of a blog post or whatever it is, but then what to, like, what is the client going to do? Are they going to send a monthly email?

Are they going to do, um, you know, an RSS feed for their blog posts? Are they going to send, um, you know, a welcome email with a coupon or a lead magnet or anything like that? So, yeah. You know, there’s the technical parts, but then there’s also the, you know, the content and what fits for the client. So, you know, we just have a conversation about that, but I do include that as part of like a third package for the most part.

Joe Howard: [00:26:53] Yeah. Cool. I think you’ve now talked about email marketing and I feel like I want to ask questions about our email marketing, because I think that’s a good, like, maybe it’ll be like a case study for people listening. Like this is how WP boss does even marketing Renee is going to help to make it better.

I don’t know everything so contextual, but maybe we could talk about it a little bit and maybe think about some things we could improve in it. Okay. So here’s how our email marketing works. Um, people come to our blog. Um, mostly through organic search, they’ll like read an article. Um, a lot of people will drive directly to our website management page or this new website build package that we offer.

So we’ll drive people there, but some people will opt into, um, our email lists. Most of those are downloading ebook. So they’re grabbing an ebook. Clicking download ebook and then a pop up comes up that says after they click, that says, here’s your book, just put you in melon here to, uh, opt in. Then they are.

Um, I can’t remember if it’s through Zapier or if it’s through the convert kit, WordPress plugin, somehow their email gets sent through our WordPress site to convert kit. They’re added to a, um, sequence in convert kit. And then they’re sent to a sequence of emails. The first email has a link, right to the ebook, whichever ebook they downloaded.

I think it actually has linked to all the eBooks. So everyone gets the welcome email and you can just click that, that ebook that you want and get access to all of them. Um, and then it sends that email, like every week. Um, that kind of goes through a separate topic. Uh, and each of those topics, um, it’s like we have one on backups and one on, you know, security and one on the website speed and one, you know, all the basic thing, you know, I think we have one, a Gutenberg, like we have.

15 weeks or something, it’s just one a week. Um, so we don’t send out any email blast right now, or we don’t sit in what I would call a broadcast email, like a, a single email. I’m sending an email sending a newsletter. Sure. Campaigns, champ, I think says it. Yeah, but we just send those automated emails. And I guess each of those emails select the backup email has, um, a few blog posts on our blog that people can go read about backup plugins or how to do a backup or.

And then it has maybe a YouTube video from our channel that has, Hey, if you wanna go watch your video battery, go check out the YouTube channel. So it’s kind of has like different sections in each one, just based on people’s I guess like medium of which they want to consume. Cause everyone consumes differently.

Right. Um, maybe it has a related podcast episode. So maybe the email marketing, you know, I will add this, this, uh, a link to this episode, email marketing, email marketing. Email marketing email. Um, so that’s in general how we do things, but if I’m being honest, we don’t do a ton of like measurement on like how effective those emails are.

Like, I don’t, I know in general, like the open rates and the sub, uh, the click rates of like every email averaged out in that email, but I don’t really know, like for that email, what it is for that email, maybe that could dual usage, but anyway, How does that compare to other, I guess like technologies related, email marketing campaigns, um.

Rene Morozowich: [00:30:14] What’s the, so you send 15 weeks worth of email and those emails are just kind of general in HR. What do you want them to do? Just go back and kiss you consume that content.

Joe Howard: [00:30:27] What I really want them to do is I want them to. Um, either potential clients who buy a website management subscription, or if they’re a white label partner too, may actually be in the middle of transitioning because we used to have everyone book a call with us.

That was our big CTA. We’re actually transitioning away from that to just a website marketing. Educational copy, help center FAQ. It’s all there. Sign up and then give you all the information on the website. So I don’t know if our CTA is now book a call, but in essence, it’s to either become a white label partner or to become a website management’s subscription, direct client.

Um, okay. And so at the bottom of every email, there’s like a PS that says, for example, on the, on the, um, backups, email PS, you know, we do real-time backups for every website that we. Click here to learn more about website management for your small business, or like for agencies, freelancers and agencies freelancers.

One goes to the white label page and they’re like direct clients. One goes to the care plan pricing page just for people to sign up. So, and that. Another automation that via Zapier sends folks into HubSpot. So now that email’s in HubSpot, now they’re a actual lead in HubSpot. So now we’ve put them, they’ve automatically been added to HubSpot as a contact and a now a lead.

And we send them some sequences there that are more about here’s what it includes. Here’s what, because they’ve signaled that they’ve clicked that. Yes, but it also. I think, yeah, that’s all it does. So via ConvertKit it doesn’t change anything about the content they get in convert kit. Okay.

Rene Morozowich: [00:32:12] Yeah. No, I think that sounds good. I think that’s important, you know, not just to have like, here’s a bunch of great content just for you. Okay. Thanks, bye. But it’s, and here’s how we can help you with that. I would like the PS because it’s not intrusive and people can kind of pick up on it when they want I’d wonder if you are doing any kind of.

Automation. Where, how do you know if people are, or do you know if people are clicking or opening? Like, do you do something different? So for example, if you’ve sent me five emails and I have clicked on every single one or you’ve sent me five emails and I haven’t opened any, do you do anything different with, with those situations?

You could, so you could, because if I’m clicking on every single link that you have an opening, every single email, I may be a warmer lead than somebody who isn’t opening any. And you could even do four because you’re, I assume you’re paying, um, for, um, you know, emails and, and sends, you know, if, if you send me 10 emails and I don’t open any, just send me a goodbye and unsubscribe.

You know, tell me I can come back later and give me a way to do that. But otherwise don’t keep paying for me because I’m not engaging with you or this isn’t the right time for me to do so. So those are some additional things.

Joe Howard: [00:33:28] Yeah. I like that explicit advice. That’s like stop paying to market to leads that are cold leads.

Like, why are you, why are you paying to market to those people? It’s uh, Blunt question, but it’s like the most important question. That’s like, that’s what email marketing is about. Right. And people who are not clicking, like they don’t want to probably be marketed to. I think I have this weird thing in my head where I’m like, But that one time, like, well, buy one email that might get them.

You’d never know, but never, but no, but I actually don’t think it like really, it turns out that way, or at least not statistically at a statistically significant rate, that’s high enough that it happens often enough that I would like be sorry that maybe one lead clicked the 10th email, but none of the other ones, but 99 out of a hundred.

They didn’t lean up. They’re not going to, so I should focus my attention on the hot ones. Yeah.

Rene Morozowich: [00:34:21] Right. And these don’t know where to find you if they, you know, if you do unsubscribe it, but you can tell them because sometimes when you say that. If people, you know, it’s kind of like you break up with somebody they’re like, oh wait, no, no, you can’t break up with me.

So it’s kind of like that. And I think people respond to it in different ways. Maybe they prioritize it differently. Like, oh, I haven’t opened those emails, but oh, there is some good content in there. You know, you could even do in a goodbye email, a quick summary or something like that to kind of entice people.

But really, I’m sure you have enough people who are clicking and engaging with things that, you know, focusing on those people. Is a good thing to do.

Joe Howard: [00:34:58] Yeah, I think probably right. The thing I don’t feel like we do enough is, um, email personalization. And I guess, I think I, what I mean by that is sending or not sending email based on actions taken in previous emails.

Like we send the same emails to everybody really, but we should probably be like, if someone clicks a speed. Ebook. Well, because you’d probably be saying them more speed stuff. I think my same part of my brain comes in when I think about that. Cause I’m like, just because someone didn’t click on a security thing, like they still need security information.

Right. So I’m like, how do I personalize information and send people things based on what they’ve already. Collect to signify that they’d like that, but also give them additional things. I think they will need based on that personalization, or maybe not based on the personalization, maybe they don’t know what they need, so I still need to send them that, you know, overwhelmed.

Rene Morozowich: [00:35:53] Yeah. You overwhelm them. Then I think that’s harder. I think, you know, when people, you know, we’re in this like inbound marketing age, when people are searching for something, if I’m searching for an answer to a specific question, you giving me that answer, but also giving me a bunch of other stuff. It might just make me turn off.

So I would say whenever you said you send all the eBooks, when you send the one ebook, that is one idea and not as fine, but yes, you could segment that way and say, okay, I’m sending you your speed ebook. Here’s some speed related emails and Hey, here’s some other related emails as well, but you could do that over a series of time.

You know, you didn’t have, you don’t have. Try to jam it all in one, you could, you could give them the speed related stuff, you know, maybe four or five emails, then maybe the sixth email. It’s like, oh, Hey. And if you’re concerned about speed, you may also be concerned about yada yada, yada, so you can kind of build on it from there.

So that is a way if you wanted to segment, segment your audience.

Joe Howard: [00:36:53] That’s a really good point about overwhelming people, because I think. I want to give people a bunch of stuff that I think they need, but I think I need to like meet them where they are in terms of their attention span or their mental bandwidth.

And if they clicked like speed. Sure. Maybe they need information still about backups and security and then information about our website edits. But. Signified the, like their top pain point or their top priority thing. So let me just try and like cement myself in there and then maybe down the line, there’s more time to educate because we do, you know, care plan stuff.

So it really is around. Educating on that whole solution and why it’s good for people to put, there’s always time for that. Like, that’s kind of part of the education that we give people. So let’s tackle that high priority thing, which is probably why they’ll sign up in the first place. Right. If they’re looking at speed, they’re like, I need speed and I get all this other stuff or I need security and I get all this other stuff.

So like, okay, let’s give, let’s like explain as best we can. Uh, like their highest priority item and then let the rest kind of sink in as they maybe do self-discovery or they’re reading our website of like, oh right.

Rene Morozowich: [00:38:01] Or they could opt, you know, they, if, if they say, Hey, I want the speed ebook. And then you send them that.

And then you say, oh, Hey, we have these other eBooks too. You know, you could let them click, you know, maybe you have sequences for each one or they, they could get them, but it’s not in the forefront. Like, here’s all the eBooks, because I don’t know about you. But when I hit an ebook, sometimes. A little overwhelmed.

Okay. Now I have to it’s that initial, like this is, this is going to fix the thing, but then it’s that initial. Okay. Now I have to consume and implement this content. So if I buy something on AppSumo okay, great. Now I have to figure it out. I have to spend some time and invest some time in, in doing that and not just kind of push it to the side.

So I think that. That overwhelm is, is what you would want to avoid, but also that segmentation, even if you do do what you’re doing now and give everybody the, um, all the stuff, just knowing what they initially signed up for might let you do a specific sequence of emails based on that.

Joe Howard: [00:39:04] Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I dig it. Um, okay, so we’ve talked a little bit. Um, like our email stuff and like the sequences that we send, do you. I guess it’s, you know, it’s answers to most things. Like it depends it’s contextual, but are you seeing it all, any shift towards more like campaign or broadcast emails that are regularly sent as opposed to maybe a sequence or like a one.

Email a welcome email. I feel like a lot of the emails I get, at least that I opt into, or like people putting together an email every week about something new they’re reading, or maybe it’s some more newsletters. Like some, I guess I would categorize the newsletters, but others, like, I wouldn’t. They’re like sent at that frequency that you could technically designate them as newsletter, blackout.

Think of them as newsletters. It’s like, I’m thinking about this thing this week, you know, here’s my little 500 word essay on it. And like, they send out a, you know, Paul Jarvis used to do his Sunday dispatches, but I didn’t never think of that as a newsletter. It was just like, here’s what Paul thinks this week.

Yeah. So I th I, and I, um, I, I don’t know. I I’m be interested to hear if that’s something. You help clients with like, do you help them craft their copy as well as strategy? Like, are you also writing stuff for people or are you really just kind of the behind the scenes consulted on like, here’s what you should do?

Rene Morozowich: [00:40:29] I think before I answer that you mentioned about people doing more automation versus more newsletters stuff. I think that for the smaller client, right? The small business, especially someone who has not done any email marketing, they are very hesitant to do the automation. Um, you know, I, I can talk them into a welcome email just because I’m like, you need to send somebody something, they send it for you.

Like, do you have the, send them something? And normally that’s okay. But people get really hesitant with the automation because they think it, you know, they’ve how they’ve been removed from the equation and automations are going to fire. They’re not going to understand it. So I think it does depend on the size of the client.

Um, obviously a larger client, um, or somebody who’s been doing this longer. They understand the benefit, but I would love to sell more automation. To existing clients, because I think that would be, you know, just like, oh, they read this blog post and then give them this information and kind of nurture them.

But that’s neither here nor there. So, um, I don’t generally help with, with content, uh, but I do set everything up. So, you know, I can match your branding or maybe we have a designer or a template already created. Um, you know, we talk about subject lines and when’s the best time to send. And here’s a report based on what happened.

And Hey, here’s how to get more people to sign up for your newsletter, that kind of stuff. But really, I rely on them to write the content and I’m hoping that they’re already creating some content somewhere else on their website, preferably. But if not, then, you know, maybe they’re writing social media posts or, or something like, hopefully they’ll, they’re telling their audience something because otherwise, if they’re not, they probably aren’t going to have a very successful email.

And that’s another thing I know I’m going on a tangent. Um, some people think that you have to have like a billion subscribers to start sending emails, but I always tell people that it’s better when it’s just your mom and your friend, because then you can work out all the bugs, right? You send that weird email with that subject that’s wrong and you work it all out.

And they’re really happy to get it because they’re like, oh look, you know, look what Joe is doing. He did this thing. We love him so much. And then as you work it out, you work out your voice. You work out when you’re going to send in what you’re going to send and that kind of. Then as your audience builds, then you’re, you know, it kind of just meats, you know?

And th that’s great. So don’t wait. And also like your audience, isn’t going to stick around if people sign up, but they’re not going to stay signed. If you never email them anything, or as soon as they get an email from you a year later, they’re gonna be like, who’s this guy that’s so weird when you get that yet, it’s like sign up for this and then maybe I’ll click that.

You never signed up for this, even though I did sign up for a year ago and it’ll like, put your deliverability and stuff. Yeah. Um, okay.

Joe Howard: [00:43:05] The two other things I did want to talk about, you already mentioned one, which was subject lines stuff. Um, so I’m trying to remember this one subject line two is deliverability.

So I’m going to come back to the deliverability in a second, but the first is subject line. Um, obviously it’s going to, it’s another one of those. It depends. And you want to get people to open it, but you also want to get people to click quick story that I sent out an email once and in the subject line.

I did AB testing ConvertKit allows you like AB test subject lines. And so I S I had a subject line and then my, that was my, a test. And my B test was I just put FWD colon in front of it. Oh, okay. So it’s like forward because my thought was okay. People are going to see FWD and they’re going to think someone forwarded it to them, and they’re gonna be more likely to open.

That was my hypothesis because I see some people do it before. And I was like, it gets a little weird and kind of like spammy, but like, I also like if the right person send it to me, I’m like, whatever, like I get it. Nice, nice job. You know, you got me. But I found that people definitely clicked that forward one at a higher rate, but they click links at a super low.

Okay. Once they saw it, they were like, Ugh, I think they didn’t like it coming from me as much. So I think so. I guess that’s a little story about subject lines, but any. Best practices around the subject line. Should I like have numbers of my subject launch? I have like parentheses, like I don’t, I don’t even know shy.

It’s just about experimentation and just kinda like seeing what your audience,

Rene Morozowich: [00:44:35] I try to make it like a subject line. Interesting enough. You know, that I would want to click on it, but still representative, you know, I try it just like I tried to write blog posts with very clear, informative titles, not the click baity stuff.

It’s the same. I do the same with email. Yes. Maybe sometimes I’ll throw in. It really just depends. Um, but yeah, I try to make it, you know, of, of a nice length, you know, not too short, not too long. That is again, representative of what’s in the email, but yes, you can, you know, go down the rabbit hole with this, just like you can with your blog, post titles.

Right. Um, you know, the analysis and the emotional words and the non-emotional words. I think it just depends where you are in the process. So again like a beginner client who just signed up for email marketing, You know, my, my goal is to help them get an email out. Not necessarily like we have crafted the perfect email subject, but you know, as time goes on, right.

It’s like, you want to run a marathon. Okay. You run that first mile. Okay, great. When are you going to do it? How are you going to do it? Do you have the right shoes, whatever. And as time goes on, you do more, you get better. So that I would think is a little bit further down the line. Um, you know, as you’re doing this for a while and then yeah, you’re spending more time.

You do the AB testing. You see what works. Yeah. Maybe you, you personalize, right? So you put, um, Joe comma, something, something, something questions. And sometimes know that gets a good response.

Joe Howard: [00:45:57] So I tried that one time and I accidentally actually put Joe instead of a first name. So everybody got an email saying, Hey, Joe, and actually a pretty good clicks, but I definitely got a few replies, like nice job, 10,000 people just got an email.

To me, myself. So, um, okay. Quickly. I also want to talk a little bit about deliverability, cause I think that’s super important. Um, so one thing you mentioned already, which was, if someone doesn’t open an email for five emails in a row, just automatically an Optum and say, see you later, that’s obviously gonna like help with your rate of opens and when like.

Service providers see your open rates, they’ll say, okay, it’s there, it’s better. They’re more likely to deliver it to a certain mailbox, I guess, like not a spam box and like Gmail has certain categories of stuff. I don’t, I actually, I keep my email just like unread and read. So I don’t even really know about those different category things, but there’s also like some.

I think you mentioned this towards the beginning of this episode, actually like some verification you can do, which I can’t even really remember. It’s like S K I S K I D

Rene Morozowich: [00:47:00] SPF records. There’s D K I M records. Um, what’s the other one? I just, it just completely flipped my mind more records sometimes. DMARC records.

Yeah. Yeah. You can’t like in any platform, you authenticate the domain first and they normally tell you, Hey, add these. And you put those records in, but you, you know, you want to send emails from you@yourdomain.com. You know, I have some clients have a rolling with a Gmail address. No, don’t do that. Um, you can ask people, Hey, white list me, you know, in that initial welcome email.

Hey, here’s, you know, for Gmail, here’s how to add me to your contacts. I don’t know. I’m not sure. I think I have problems. Yeah, I haven’t either, but. I don’t think I have problems getting those emails. So if I got it, I don’t know. You could probably drag it. Yeah. If you, if it’s in promotions, but I look at promotion, so I guess it really does depends.

Um, but yes, if people aren’t opening the email, then yeah. You, you send them that, Hey, I see. You’re not opening my emails and.

Joe Howard: [00:48:02] Yeah. I think those are probably two good practices. One is all those, um, w would you call them like verification? Yeah. Like DNS records, DNS records. That’s just like a good, best practice.

Like you should always do that with your email service provider trimming. I think it’s important. So like we were talking about if someone’s not setting up an automation, so if someone’s not even opening emails, just like stop sending them emails, right. Don’t pay to send emails to someone who’s not engaging with you at all. Um, any other, anything else that you feel like for deliverability is okay.

Rene Morozowich: [00:48:35] And the domain, like use, use a, a legit email like you at your domain or hello at your domain yet, or not like a no reply or anything. Um, you know, a nice email address, you could also say, I don’t know if this makes a difference, but you could say in the email too, that you reply to the emails like that might make it a little bit more personal.

I don’t know that that’s going to necessarily help the deliverability, but if that is delivered and people see that, yeah. Maybe they’re more likely to reply. So maybe then, you know, you have that conversation going, you know, your email provider sees that there is some. You know, correspondence, I guess, happening.

It’s not just a case where you’re blasting out emails and nobody’s reading them.

Joe Howard: [00:49:15] I could, I could see that. It’s kind of like proof that like, if there’s a reply thread there and the email service provider, like goop, maybe Google theoretically can see that. And they can also theory, I say theoretically, but like definitely they probably do this, right.

They’re like, oh, well, like he’s sending emails. You’re always sending emails and people are replying to them. So. And they’re not just like unsubscribe, there’s some value being provided there. So maybe I’ll bump his deliverability or WQ buffs.com deliverability a little bit. So, yeah,

Rene Morozowich: [00:49:43] I think another thing you can do on the front end is I do double opt in some people don’t because, you know, and just kind of protecting those signup forms you can put captures on them or whatever.

So people. Are who are signing up or really, really sure. You know, they’re the ones who are signing up for themselves and they verify. In, you know, within the email, Hey, are you sure you want to be on this list? Yes. So I think that’s getting good people on your list. Not good people, but getting people on your list who want to be on your list instead of because people could spam your con yeah.

Joe Howard: [00:50:19] Like my friend’s email address and I know people who’ve been from. They could plan a joke on whoever.

Rene Morozowich: [00:50:25] But then that person could be like, Hey, I didn’t get this and mark it as spam. So that hurts. So you could make it so that you know, that double opt-in, um, you really do have people on your list who want to be there.

Joe Howard: [00:50:35] Yeah. I can’t think of a lot of scenarios where I would not want to double opt-in. I’m trying to think of one right now. Just off the top of my head. I can’t think of one right now. I’m sure if I thought for a while, I could, but double opt-in seems like. Best practices or whatever you always want to test what’s best for you.

But I, I would usually recommend people start with double opt in because I think you’re right. It’s also, I think another, it’s not just an opportunity to tell people like, Hey, I respect your email address and I respect your privacy. And like, I’m making sure you signed up for this before. Email you like treating people’s inboxes with respect, I think is important.

I think it also adds another, um, it adds another opportunity for you to add personalization to things. So like our opt in is like, Hey, we’re just like, it’s like making sure you’re not an alien and making sure you’re not, you’re making sure you’re human and it’s the, you can personalize that confirmation link and convert kit.

And I say it like it’s buff tastic with like the bicep emoji. So it adds some. Like, Hey, this is, we didn’t just keep the boiler plate. Yeah. Opt in email. It’s like, Hey, this is going to be a fun experience. Like you don’t have to click confirm. That’s cool, but that’s why we’re sending you this. But if you do click confirm, like you’re coming along for this ride that like, we’re going to be, we’re doing this together.

Let’s like shoot some emails back and forth. And I think that is a good opportunity, you know?

Rene Morozowich: [00:51:54] Well, expect that right. People expect that they sign up for something like they’re going to get something, whether it’s a confirmation or a welcome, and those welcome emails have the highest. Because people just signed up.

That’s when they want to do the thing, they don’t want to hear from you. I mean, they may be, but you know, they really want to hear from you now, three months later, you know, Jerry’s out, but now is the time to capitalize on it. So yes, customizing all of that, making it look like your branding consistent across all your platforms, sending them the thing they’re interacting with it.

Joe Howard: [00:52:23] Yeah. Yeah. Couldn’t agree more. I always go like any software I use that’s client facing. Or person facing at any point, like I go through those settings, like methodically, like, I don’t know if you’ve, I’m sure you’ve opted out of a MailChimp email before and it like gives you that, like, did you, you know, the little questionnaire, like why did you opt out?

But so often people have not personalize that page or not customize it. And it just has like, Email marketing list from 2018, the top. And it’s like, you didn’t even add your logo with it. Like, this is totally like, no wonder I opted out, like, you’re just treating me just like another email subscriber, you know, but I always made sure, like when I was using MailChimp, yes, I use convert kit now, but anything like, I always go through try to make it as personalized as possible.

I’m sure you could tell when you signed up to do this to like, uh, to, uh, Set the date for this podcast recording. And like, my Calendly is like, woo, like every setting and set, like I have like an emoji with the date or with the calendar event. There’s like a little emoji with the microphone, like just cause I think that adds another little, like this is going to be a special experience.

So, um, Cool. All right. Let’s not wrapping up this awesome episode. I learned a ton and I have to pay you for a little bit of your time here because you gave us some nice consulting time on WPF. So email strategy. So, um, let’s wrap up a couple more things. First is I just want you to let folks know where they can find you online, social media website, all that jazz.

Rene Morozowich: [00:53:52] Yeah. So, uh, you mentioned my website before it’s Renee mcw.com. If you go to Renee mcw.com/connect, you’ll find my Twitter, my LinkedIn, my Instagram and YouTube. And you can find me there. It’s, it’s my first name and last name, which is long. So if you go there, it’ll be easier to find. Um, and then also, I guess you can sign up, I have a little email sequence there about how to keep people on your site longer.

So yeah, if you want to jump on that, then. Um, so that I was going to mention before. That’s one thing I do too. You don’t send like an ongoing, like, or a one-off sort of campaign or broadcast. I do that also. So I do have some sequences. And then at the end, I believe in the sequences, the check this just to make.

Um, you know, if you sign up for this video or sign up for the sequence at the end, you can then opt into my main list. Some people do just add people to their main list, but you don’t have to do, you know, you could, you could be a little bit more, um, you know, keep those things separate if you want. And that way people who do opt in, you know, really want to opt into your main list.

Joe Howard: [00:54:58] Cool dig it. Uh, last but not least. I’d like to ask our guests to ask our listeners for a little apple podcast review. So if you wouldn’t mind asking folks to leave us a little review, I’d appreciate.

Rene Morozowich: [00:55:10] Yeah, definitely. Hey, go leave a review.

Joe Howard: [00:55:12] Hey, I love it. If you leave review WP mrr.com forward slash review takes you right to the, uh, iTunes or apple podcast page.

If you’re on an apple or a Mac device, leave us a, a star rating. Just the star rating is fine, but if you leave a little comments, something you learned from this episode, something you liked throughout this episode, uh, it’ll give us a little extra ideas. Content we should do more about in the future.

Maybe we’ll do some more email marketing episodes if we get some reviews there. So feel free to leave one. We’ll also shoot Renee a little screenshot and thinker for nice. Yes. Uh, if you are a new listener, To us here, we got 150 plus older episodes and we’ve got a search bar on WP, mrr.com forward slash podcast.

Uh, go and search for whatever you’re having a challenge with right now, uh, and listen to some older episodes, no need to binge. New Disney plus shows or your app, you know, apple TV shows. You can binge some WP MRR podcast episodes instead. Um, WP M R community. It’s just a community dot WP, mrr.com. Um, Renee is going to be doing an AMA there.

Starting tomorrow. Uh, async AMA, so we’re recording this on Monday. It’ll go live tomorrow. So she’ll be in there doing some AMA tomorrow. So she has some email marketing questions. It’s a perfect place to ask. I’m. I’m going to have a ton of questions tonight that are follow up questions. The ones I had today.

So I’m going to ask her there tomorrow. So WP mrr.com, but I forgot the sub domain, which is community community. That WP mrr.com. Uh, go in there and participate in the AMA or anywhere in there. All you have to do is sign up to be a part of the community and you’ll automatically be registered for the upcoming WP MRR virtual summit coming up September 21, 22 and 23.

Uh, if you just go to WP, mrr.com. All the info and details are right on the homepage for that. So, very exciting. That is coming up. Ooh. It’s soon. September it’s sooner. It seems like a sell like half a year away, but then I remember it’s not, it’s very close. So go ahead and get registered for that just by signing up for the community as well.

Cool. That is it. For this week on the WP MRR podcast, we will be in your ear buds again next Tuesday, Renee. Thanks again for being on. It’s been real. Thank you so much. See everyone.

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