182 podcast episodes 🎙️

In today’s episode, we get to listen again to Joe and Shane Barker’s conversation. They talk about why real-time engagement matters more than fake following, how influencers shouldn’t rely on just one platform, and staying visible online through relevant and relatable content.    

Shane is a top digital marketing consultant, keynote speaker, and influencer. He has helped businesses accelerate their growth with customized digital marketing consultation and services. Having won many accolades, he has consulted with Fortune 500 companies, influencers with digital products, and a number of A-List celebrities.

What to Listen For:

  • 00:00 Intro
  • 00:50 Welcome to the pod, Shane!
  • 02:11 Teaching a course in UCLA
  • 04:46 How would you define an influencer?
  • 07:20 Fake followers versus real engagement     
  • 15:21 Drive social media traffic to your website
  • 20:03 When your social media account gets shut down
  • 22:21 Think where your audience is at
  • 29:14 Presenting yourself on social media without bragging
  • 36:55 The pressure of having a lot of visibility online
  • 43:11 Find Shane online 

Episode Resources:

Podcast Transcript:

Joe Howard: Hey, WordPress people. Welcome back to the WP MRR WordPress podcast. I’m Joe

Shane Barker: and I’m

Joe Howard: overing. And you’re listening to the WordPress business podcast. We’ve got Wolverine on the podcast this week. One of the most popular X-Men, uh, around what’s going on.

Shane Barker: Nothing man. Just hanging out, looking forward to, hopefully we’ll be filming a movie here soon.

Also, you guys can’t see this on the podcast, but I have an, like an aggressively red beard that I’ve grown out for the new movie. Yeah.

Joe Howard: Nice, nice. Everyone knows that. Wolverine is a, is a red head.

Shane Barker: Yeah, secretly, I mean, who doesn’t want to be a redheaded C? I mean, especially in elementary school, I was so popular.

Joe Howard: Uh, cool. Wolverine, uh, the red headed Wolverine on the podcast this week also known as Shane Barker. Shane. Welcome to the podcast, man.

Shane Barker: Hey man. Thanks for having me. I’m excited. Yeah, for

Joe Howard: sure. Cool. Uh, why don’t you tell people a little bit, uh, about yourself, about what you do, uh, maybe like, as it relates to the WordPress space, it’s kind of a WordPress podcast and most listeners WordPress professionals, but you know, you do some stuff with WordPress and some stuff in the marketing world as well.

So yeah. Give us a little, a little play by play here.

Shane Barker: Yeah. So I’ve, I’ve actually been like in the digital space for about 25 years. I actually teach at UCLA. I teach personal branding and how to be an influencer course. And I’ve used WordPress forever. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s been the platform that I use for all my clients when we used to develop websites quite a bit in my earlier days.

I mean, I say my earlier days, probably 10 years ago, maybe eight years ago, seven years ago, but we use WordPress for my own website, obviously index as well. I mean, there’s nothing, you know, everything’s phenomenal about it. You know, keywords and getting index and all the fun stuff. So I’ve been, I do that.

I have a consulting company called Shane barker.com. Um, I also have, uh, a few, I have a few different companies that I have. I mean, they’re all, like I said, in the digital space that all come into driving traffic and converting traffic. And so that’s kind of, that’s kind of my expertise, but also the influencer side of things, because I’ve been writing about it for about seven or eight years, and I teach a course at you.

Cool man.

Joe Howard: Uh, if the tissue in the course of UCLA is actually, I didn’t know that about you. I did a little research about you. I was like, what’s up with shame. You do it online, but I didn’t, I didn’t catch that UCLA part as someone who’s been in the digital space for a little while. I don’t hear about a lot of like teaching of this kind of stuff, especially in universities.

So that sounds like that’s kind of new to me. What w how did you, how did that come about.

Shane Barker: So it’s crazy, man. It’s actually kind of a funny story. So I, this was, uh, probably about two years ago. I had a local junior college cause I’m here in Sacramento, California, and our local junior college. One of the instructors that I’ve known for awhile while reached out to me, said, Hey, we want to, we really liked for you to teach a course.

Um, you know, I mean, you know, in a roundabout way, she furnished with the instructors that we have are old and they don’t, they’re not in the current space. Right. They’re not an Instagram. They’re not on Tik TOK. They’re not on wherever. I don’t think tick-tock was around two years ago, but anyways, you get my point.

They would, they’re not on these platforms. And so really looking for a practitioner. So they, and I said, well, it sounds awesome. Let’s see, let me look into this. And they said, well, but you have to have your master’s degree. And I said, okay, well then let me go back and get my masters. So I was looking into my master’s degree.

Two weeks later, I might have UCLA reached out to me and said, Hey, we’re, you know, hiring for this position is personal branding, how to be an influencer. And so I sent him an email back and I was like, well, Hey, just so you guys know, I don’t have my master’s, you know, and they said, that’s it. The problem is what do you mean really?

So I said, okay. So I flew down there and they’re like, yeah, we’re really looking for a practitioner. We’re looking for somebody that’s in this space. It’s such a new space. We just know a lot of the instructors. Aren’t going to know how to teach it. And we want somebody that’s, that’s actually been in the space.

And so it was interesting to me because. Usually it’s not that way. Right? I mean, unfortunately academia or the university systems. They’re like, you have to go through certain things, right. You have to do this and you have to do your masters. You have to do this. And in a lot of the times you’re not grandfathered in.

If you have, you know, 20 years of, um, background in marketing, right? Like that should be better than any degree that you received 20 years ago. Right. As soon as they reached out to me and it was because of the content that I was writing. And because of the, my website, obviously it was, you know, were pressed and that was indexing well, and they read my articles and said, Hey, we think you’d be a good fit.

And that’s how I got the job. Like, I didn’t even apply for it. Like they came after me. So it was kind of a crazy little deal. Um, and I’ll be honest. The first time they emailed me, I thought I got hacked. I thought somebody was hacking me in. You know, Hey, UCLA wants to hire you. And I was like, oh, sounds good.

Okay. Whatever buddy. You know? Okay. Let me give you my account number, you know, so yeah, so, but anyways, but yeah, it was a, it was a real deal. And then all of a sudden I had a job at UCLA. Nice.

Joe Howard: That’s funny that a lot of opportunities that people have, uh, you know, you put yourself in good opportunities to, or you put yourself in a good position to be lucky to get opportunities, but a lot of times opportunities kind of find you, you know, it goes both ways.

It’s a

Shane Barker: crazy deal, man. It’s a crazy world.

Joe Howard: Cool. Okay. So teaching this stuff at UCLA, so you must know a thing or two about influencers, personal branding, that kind of stuff. Uh, I mean, my first question is like, what makes someone an influencer? Like how would, how would you define an influencer as someone who knows tons about the topic?

Shane Barker: Yeah. I mean, it’s, you know, influencers like is like a, it’s like a dirty word these days, you know, if you were like, oh, you’re an influencer. Like what, what warrants an influencer? Like at what point do you go, Hey, you know what, now I have influence over my community or whatever that is. Right. So the thing is, is it used to be follower camp?

You were like, oh, if you get X amount of followers and you’re in theory and influencer for me, it really comes down to it. It’s not necessarily a follower account. It’s if you’ve built. And your community listens to you, right? So you, Joe has an example. You are an influencer. You might not look at yourself that way, but you have a podcast.

You have a, a heavy amount of people that use WordPress, right? Your very, your niche down in your space. And so if you go and you have a sponsor on your podcast and whatever it is, it’s SCM rush or whatever that is. There’s people that are going to say, well, if Joe uses it, then maybe I should use it. Right.

And there’s, there’s going to be some validity to that because you actually use those programs or software. So an influencer once again does not have to be people. Think Instagram is kinda like the first thing. Oh, that must be an influencer. An influencer can be a reporter. It can be a blogger. It can be a blogger.

It can be anybody that posts content on Instagram. It can be tick-tock, it can be Twitter. It’s, it’s just somebody that is built out. Some kind of a social media platform have built out a website and they have people that follow them. And that. Like what they put out there and are willing to potentially purchase something and practice service that somebody either reviews or talks about.

So, you know, we have like YouTube COVID unboxings. I mean, there’s just, there’s literally hundreds of different ways that you can, you can use it or work with an influencer and an influencer what’s going can, does not have to be somebody that has a million followers on Instagram. That doesn’t mean that instantly they’re an influencer.

You can have high numbers, but that doesn’t mean you’re influencing people. So I think that’s always a, a misnomer about it must be. So the follower count and that’s not always.

Joe Howard: Yeah. I, I hear that. Um, I feel like when I think about influencer, like I follow a few people who I guess I would consider influencers, right?

Like, like I’m, I’m a YouTube person. So I’m on YouTube, you know, watching different videos. Like Casey Neistat is someone who like, I watched a lot of his videos because I’m very interested in his life and the things that he does. And so, you know, this influencer. I agree with you. Some people are like, kind of like, ah, influencer.

That’s like a dirty word, like, ah, like get that vocabulary out of here. But it’s, I like to think about it more as just like the concept behind it, I think is what’s more important than the, than the actual word or terminology of it. Um, but can you talk a little bit more about like follower count versus actually being an influencer or like size of your email list?

Sort of things I’ve always felt that these can definitely be vanity metrics, but. What’s like kind of the difference between just having a big email list or a big audience and having people actually like, you know, follow what you do and trust and have trust in you.

Shane Barker: Yeah. I mean, I think the, the issue is, is that brands will, for years, they’ve always looked at follower count.

Right. And, and that actually has started the, you know, I’m not going to call it an epidemic because people think it’s like rampant and people are dying because of it. But because of like fake. Right. And, and adding fake followers to your account. So the issue is if you’re a brand and you’re going to an influencer and you say, Hey, listen, you have 20,000 or 25,000 people following you.

So we’ll give you a thousand dollars. But if you get to 50,000, we’ll give you 2,500. But if you get up to 100,000, we usually pay those influencers 10 grand, and then guess what? As an influencer, I go, okay. How do I get to a hundred thousand faster? Right. It took me five years to get 25,000, but how do I get to a hundred thousand?

Like, I don’t have another 15 years to do it. Right. And then people start doing fake followers and not everybody’s doing it. Right. I mean, a high percentage of people have fake followers. Right. And it really comes down to like how many fake followers you have. But the thing is this, you know, as much as you read about it, like, oh, fake followers, Oh, my God, it’s an epidemic and kids are dying because they have fake followers.

I’m being facetious obviously, but no kids are dying because of fake followers, but it really comes down to if you’re a brand, you just look at somebody’s engagement. You look at like, you know, they save a hundred thousand followers and they get a thousand likes on a picture and they get two comments.

Whether that number is true or not true. Two comments is not real engagement, right. If you have those type of numbers, right. Okay. And if I was speaking to a hundred thousand people and I only had two questions at the end, you know, it just seems, it feels like there would be, if you, if you’re producing good content and people like your content, they’re going to be more engaged with what you have to say, right.

With the content you’re putting out there. So, you know, it’s, it’s a, the fake follower thing. And the fact that you have influence just means the way I look at it is back in the day it was, Hey, we post a picture with an influencer right on, on Instagram. And we see how well it does. It’s not that way anymore.

And what I mean by that, It really comes down to a strategy. You have to figure it out, put a plan together, right? So you go to an influencer and say, Hey, where do you have? What do you think you have influenced? And, well, I have a good followership on Instagram. I’ve got a buy blog, puts brings in a hundred thousand a month and I’ve got a 15,000 email list.

And so really now what should happen is a brand should say, Hey, that’s interesting. Um, what we’d be interested in doing is we have a budget of, let’s say $5,000. And what would you do for that $5,000? And the influencer goes. I would post two pictures on Instagram. I would do three stories. I’d write a blog post about it, and I do a blog about it.

That would be keyword driven. That would go after the keywords that you want us to go after. And then you as a brand have to go, okay, for $5,000, do I think that’s worth it? Right? Cause that’s the other big question is like, what do I pay? Influencers? How much do I pay an influencer? Well, First of all, we have to quit putting all influencers in one bucket, right.

Because everybody has different packages, right? That’s like, it’s not, everybody’s the same. So they say, what should I pay an influencer with this, this, this, and this. And it really comes down to, what do you think is fair? Like right. If J tell you this is the package I’m putting together for $5,000 and you look at it and say, okay, I sell $5,000 widgets.

All I have to do is sell two widgets to break even on this. And do I think this influencer can at least sell two widgets for us, right. To break even enough, obviously the goal isn’t to break even, but the goal is to at least get your money back. Right? And so you just have to figure that out. If you’re putting together a campaign and you sell, you know, $1 forks and you have to sell 10,000 forks, you have to go, okay.

That campaign that they’re putting together, do I think that they’re going to be able to push, push the needle? So they sell 10,000 forks. W the lower price point it’s sometimes becomes a little more difficult once again, depending on the influencer and their audience and stuff like that. But it comes down to a frequency deal.

You can’t just do one picture, don’t hire an influencer to put up one picture and then expect to move to The Bahamas and drink Coronas and my ties the rest of your life. Right? I mean, you can do that, but that isn’t going to equal the money that you’d be able to do to go retire. Right. So the idea is you put a strategy behind it.

You have to put a campaign behind it. So every influencer is different. So I usually, when I pursue an influencer. I tell them, Hey, this is what my budget is. And what would you be willing to do for that budget? And some influencers. This is the other side of it. So the other side of it is a lot of influencers don’t know how to put packages together.

Right. And that’s what I teach at UCLA because they go, okay, well, I’ve got this, these things going on. And I have a brand that brand wants me to put a package together. Like, what do I do? Like, I don’t really know what is, what’s a package like. And you say, okay, well, you have to figure out where do you think they’re going to get the most traction and what kind of content you’re going to have to produce and what that’s going to cost you to produce that content.

And if that content is going to be a one-time Instagram post, that’s going to go down in the feed and people aren’t going to see it. It’s only going to have some traction mainly in the beginning for the most part, or is it going to be a blog post? That’s going to be evergreen that could potentially be number one on Google and can continue to bear fruit.

Right. So, I mean, there’s just a lot of different ways to look at it. And I think, you know, my big thing these days is I do heavy education. So I actually teach a word. I do a workshop with brands to say, Hey, listen, this is how you find influencers. This is how you work with them. This is how you put your brief together.

This is what you want to put in your contract. And then I also talked to influencers and say, you know, because a lot of influencers aren’t marked. Right. That’s the thing is like your Helen, the yoga instructor. She’s not a marketer. She just has people that really like her and like she’s authentic and she’s genuine.

And you know, she does all this great stuff and gives out great content. Well, she gets a lot of the time, doesn’t know how to put a package together. So I have a course and I’m coming out with it. We’ve already talked about the, how to be an influencer.com is the course, but how you can go there. And then what they can do is take a.

And personal branding, like how did, like, how do you put these packages together? And first of all, before the packages, how do you like get your website up? Right. And how do you get your, you know, your custom email address? Like these basic things that you want to have, right? You don’t want to have like hot girls, 69 at Gmail, emailing Nike and saying, Hey, I want to be, you know, I want to be your number one influencer, and they’re gonna be like, well, first of all, you, you have a Gmail account, right?

Like you gotta kind of like show that you’ve right. I mean, it’s cool that you’re hot and 69 is awesome, but what, you know, we got to kind of figure this thing out here a little bit. Right. So that’s really what it comes down to. And so I’m the education side of it, because I think any of the, the, the, some of the news about influencers can be negative because once again, it’s a new thing and they it’s, you know, it’s like two, it’s like two high school kids getting together to dance.

It’s kinda like, I’m not really sure where to put my hands or what to do. I’m like, you know, it’s kind of this awkward little situation and I’m here to be. You know, I guess I, I guess I’m the awkward teacher at the dance that shows you how to dance with each other. That sounds super weird when you say it out loud, but the idea is just to help facilitate it, right?

I mean, that sounds super awkward, but I’m not really going to be at a dance with your kids and making sure that they’re holding each other. It’s

Joe Howard: disclaimer.

Shane Barker: Don’t worry. Yeah. Stranger danger, stranger danger. No, I, you know, really it comes down to just getting it so that brands and influencers can work better together.

I mean, that’s really my goal.

Joe Howard: Cool, man. Okay. So a lot of information there as someone who’s in the WordPress space, uh, I mean, I guess I hesitate to call myself like an influence. I understand the concept of like, I have some certain characteristics of what an influencer would be to like, you know, cause I do this WMR course.

I run this company. I have a little clout in the space, uh, after being here for 5, 6, 7 years doing this stuff, I find that in the WordPress community, um, being a core part of the community, uh, is really important to really loving open source softwares. It’s pretty vital, uh, wanting to help others and to kind of help smaller businesses come up after you’ve come up and give your advice to other people.

Like those are things that, that help you be someone who people look up to in the WordPress space. Um, but there are definitely some other strategies involved. I would love to hear a little bit, and this, this may be some, some of the stuff that you’re including your course on how to be an influencer.com, but, uh, maybe we could go through just like, if someone’s kind of starting from.

Zero. They’re just kind of like, okay, like this sounds like something that I may be able to do. Uh, maybe particularly in like the WordPress space, like someone wants to say, you know, I’m a pretty good developer, but I don’t really have, uh, like any visibility online or like I’m a solid designer or I’m a solid marketer even, but I don’t have a lot of, uh, you know, blog posts out or I don’t have an Instagram profile.

What are like the first, I don’t know. I want to say first three, but like. Well, the first steps that you would, you would advise someone to take just like, as someone starting out.

Shane Barker: Well, first of all, if you, your audience is WordPress people there for they’re starting off, that’s where you need to start off as building a website.

Right? Because what happens is, is what, what we’ve seen we’ve seen consistently is that whether it’s Instagram, it’s YouTube, it’s, whatever everybody complains about that. Right. So it’s this it’s like, oh, I used to make more, so much more money. Two years ago, I made tons of money and now the algorithm change and there’s this, there’s that right?

So at the end of the day, it really comes down to using WordPress building your own website, right? Because the idea of all the social platforms that you want to be on, and we’ll go over that here in a second, the idea is you want to drive the traffic from those social platforms to your website, right? Or to your course, or to whatever you have going.

Because that’s where your money’s at. Right? And you control that, right? Not necessarily controlled all the way when it comes to Google and trying to index, that’s kind of another conversation, but you can, you, you, you pay your hosting for $10. You pay your 10, $15 a year, whatever it is and how in, in domain registration fees.

And there we go, you own that, right. As long as you’re paying those fees, you have that. So that’s what I’m teaching people to do is like you’re, if you’re just on Instagram, you’re literally waiting to get shut down or have something happen because the only guarantee is that Facebook is going to. They did it with Facebook, right.

They, all of a sudden you’re getting tons of engagement. Everything was awesome. And then all of a sudden overnight you’re like, God, nobody’s responding to my stuff. Or what did they say, Hey, do you want to boost this post for seven bucks? Okay, that sounds good. And then they’re getting $7 a post and they’re buying, you know, times a hundred million people.

I mean, you do the math, right? It’s not that everybody did it, but my point is is you get engagement, you get dish, you’re getting all this, this great traction. And what they’re going to do is they’re going to pull back on that and then you’re going to have to pay for that, right. They’re going to have to, there’s going to be a pay to play, and that’s not a problem.

That’s their model. And they own the site. You don’t own Instagram Ford slash. You don’t. I don’t know that I absolutely do not. They can shut me down for my political views for anything. Right. I’m not trying to be negative, but really at the end of the day, they can shut you down in a hot second. But if you have, if you diversify view of other platforms like Instagram and Facebook or whatever, this is wherever you want to produce content.

And that’s another thing too, is that you have to produce content where you want to produce content, right? Like if I go. Hey, Joe, you really need to jump into video. And you’re like, ah, but I hate the way I look on video and we were going to fight for three months, six months. You’re never going to a video.

It’s going to, you’re going to kick and scream all the way. Right. And I can understand the first one is always weird. Cause people always hate the way I read the first blog wrote log article I wrote was terrible. In fact, I showed it to my students and they’re like, dad, that’s terrible. And I’m like, exactly.

Now I’m teaching you. So you do the math on that one. Right? So, but it’s thing with video, like you feel like I was just terrible and I’m stuttering and I looked terrible and the lighting’s not good. If that’s, if you’re only worried about that small thing, you can get past that. You just keep doing it. But if you say, listen, I like, I stayed up all last night with anxiety and I was throwing up this morning thinking about doing the video.

Probably you’re not going to do that many videos. Right. So you have to figure out where do you want to produce that content? And let’s get all that conscious reproduce with the goal of driving it back to your WordPress site, right? That’s where the money’s at. That’s where your all we’re consistently going to have control over that.

There’s a lot of ways to do it through social. And there’s obviously SEO and there’s, you know, PPC that you can do. There’s a lot of different ways that you can drive that traffic to your website and be able to convert them. And influencer marketing is no different. Like the idea of influencer marketing is to get people, to buy things or get people to, you know, if you’re looking for more eyeballs or, or exposure, it just, you have to figure out what your KPIs are, right?

Your key performance indicators or what your goals are. And then you build a campaign around that. And then you have to have some. Things, you know that obviously you talked about KPIs, like, well, how am I going to know that somebody closed a deal, right? How do I know that Shane, when he posted this video, that he was the one that brought all the boys to the yard.

And you know, once again, I know all kinds of sales happen. Well that’s coupon codes and some other stuff we’ll talk about, but really it comes down to, like I said, if you’re, if you’re in WordPress, you should build a website. You have to have that. That’s going to be very, very key to this whole thing and use everything else is just a tool to drive the track.

Joe Howard: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. We’ve Christie and I have done some episodes on open source versus closed source and talked a lot about this exact thing. You know, if you have a Instagram account with a hundred thousand followers, it could get shut down tomorrow because you post something about your political views, like you say, and you know, the instant, the 10 top people on Instagram came together and said, actually, we don’t really like this person.

We’re going to shut it down. WordPress source. So when you buy your hosting, when you install WordPress, the GPL language tells you that that is your content. You own that content, uh, and you can publish what you want there. So, yeah, I’m a big, uh, we’re big believers in owning your content and democratizing publishing here in the WordPress space.

For sure.

Shane Barker: Yeah, you have to man. Cause if, once again, it’s, your, your stuff can get shut down for no reason. And they don’t have to tell you why I’ve had big clients that, you know, on Instagram or wherever they’ve gotten shut down. And we go back and really at the end of the day, Facebook and Instagram, nothing against them, but they don’t really care unless you’re an advertiser for the most part.

Right? I mean, if you’re spending big bucks, then you get the private phone number and you get, you know, Helen that will answer the call because, you know, you’re spending a hundred grand a month, but if you’re Joe blow the political. Loves or hates trumps and wrote something crazy on there and they shut your account down.

Yeah. You’re going to get crickets, my friend, you don’t get the private phone number to, you know, we’re, Helen’s gonna answer. Harold is going to be like, you know, being real weird where she’s not going to answer that call. Right. Cause you’re not, you’re not spending money and that’s just, that’s the reality of it.

And so you have to go fight to get your account back. And, you know, we have been able to get some of our clients stuff back and it doesn’t happen all the time where it gets banned, but when it does. Let’s say you wake up and your number one source of revenue, and then all of a sudden it’s shut down. And you’re you talk about helpless that sucks, but your website will always be solid, you know, as long as you have the hosting up and you’re not getting, you know, span with links and all the other fun stuff that we have to fight, but it’s, it’s yours and you will always have that.

So. Yeah,

Joe Howard: I hear that for sure. Okay. We talked a little bit about social stuff as well. So using social media to drive traffic to your website, uh, as a fellow marketer, I’m a big in the inbound marketing and content marketing stuff. So we read a lot of content to try and drive traffic that way, but we don’t have as much like.

Driving as much traffic from social media. Like if you look at our Google analytics, you’ll see like referral traffic. And like 90% of our traffic comes from organic search and then like 5% comes from referral and then 3% comes direct. And then there’s like this little, you know, little one to 2% coming from email and social media.

Um, so as someone whose organization is, I wouldn’t necessarily say we’re bad at social media, but I would say we’re bad at driving. Traffic, especially meaningful traffic traffic that will subscribe to our email list traffic that will sign up for one of our care plans or this WP MRR, WordPress course traffic.

Pay us money for something or become ritually, become part of our audience. Uh, in terms of people we can reach directly like via an email list. Um, social we’re not as good at driving the traffic from social. Um, so maybe we could talk a little bit about, we could do like a mini coaching session here and help me think about some of the strategies we could use.

Not only. Drive more traffic via social, but like what, yeah. What, what aspects can we do to make social more meaningful for us?

Shane Barker: Yeah. I mean, social is, is kind of a bear just in the sense of, cause you’re, you’re talking about you guys are having the WordPress space, right? So you’re not going to see too many people that are on Instagram and go, I’m going to go follow Joe.

Cause all he talks about is WordPress. It is so hot. Like I wake up on a Saturday morning. Right. And then you’re like, God, I just, Joe talks about code and it just gets me revved up. Right. It’s just not as sexy. Right. Instagram as an example is more like lifestyle and this happened, the other I’m drinking my tea and my private jet with my pink poodle on I’m eating caviar.

That was gonna be all that’s fake. I was

Joe Howard: yesterday, right?

Shane Barker: No, I hear you. That’s me. I’m like, that’s, I, I actually just came down to my private jet. I was actually a dream, but that was the closest I’ve gotten to my jet. But that’s the thing is like, it really depends on where you think your audience is going to be in social is becoming more difficult.

Right. Because I think. People are because there’s just so much, right. There’s so many different places to get content. And that’s where I think, you know, it’s important for, for companies. Like, let’s say yours as an example, to figure out where you think your audience is at. Right. And if you say, Hey, I think it’s Instagram.

I might disagree. Right? I’m not saying they’re not people there that use WordPress. Obviously there is, but there’s there. You’re probably not going to go to Instagram for WordPress information, right? The reason why 90% of your traffic is from, is from Google. Organic is because. If I’m one questions about WordPress, I’m like, okay, where do I go?

Is it Twitter maybe? Right. Facebook. Nah, not really. It’s going to be Google. Right? You’re going to go. I’m going to go and Google search. I’m going to go to core. I’m going to find out where people are asking certain questions and then, so that’s why you’ve optimized for that. Like. Your breakdown of your traffic is like almost the same as mine.

Like I get almost all of my stuff is organic because I write about, you know, marketing. So if somebody wants to know that SEO, they’re not going to go look at, you know, cool, hot Shane on Instagram to find out what he’s talking about, SEO. Right? Like, so yeah, she should, it’s pretty popular cause I’m going to create it right when we get off this podcast.

No. And that’s the thing is you’re not really going to get that. It’s like, where’s my word. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have one, maybe it’s for your own personal stuff or thing you’re doing, or, you know, you can use Instagram for like your course, or you can talk about people that have had successes in your course.

Right. And testimonials, and Hey, this is John and Nick is a 15 thing. John’s talking about how he went from zero to $10,000 a month, whatever that is. Like, people are like that. Keeping the dream alive. And people are like, oh, that’s exciting that somebody took Joe’s course and he’s crushing it because of that.

And it’s only a $97 investment, but yet this guy made 10 grand. So that’s where things can get interesting. Right. In regards to the type of content that you think. Right. So for that, it’s not necessarily going after the WordPress professional, you’re going after the person that wants to be a, you know, get into WordPress.

Cause they, they feel like there’s riches. There there’s money to be made if you take my course, that will make it. So. You know, I’m going to give you the 10 years of knowledge here in this 17 hour course or whatever 10 hour course. And you’re going to be able to be, you know, once again, you’re going to be able to go in and be able to make, do things faster and not have to spend the 10 years that I spent, uh, understanding like how we do things, right?

So I’m going to streamline that. It’s like a mentor. And so there we go. So now the person who says, Hey, I want to do a website and I’m not a big WordPress person, but I can take your course. And at least, you know, be 80% closer to where I need to be than where I’m at. Yeah.

Joe Howard: Gotcha. So I think we try to do a little bit of social strategy in terms of, we find that different channels are good for certain aspects of sharing who we are.

So like our Twitter account is kind of about sharing our content and sharing content maybe we’ve been featured in, or it’s. It allows us to build relationships with people by like tagging people who we’ve included in articles and saying like, Hey, like we included you. Plugin. Thanks for being awesome.

You’re part of our list and then maybe they’ll retweet us. And so we can kind of get in front of other audiences that way and kind of share that like hashtag WordPress community on Twitter, Instagram, is we your rights? Like, no, we don’t find that anybody’s going to Instagram, like retweet like a specific WordPress thing, unless it’s around or re gram or whatever it is.

To like really do it, that high gate and stuff, unless it’s around word camps, there’s some word camp X activity on Instagram, but we try to use it really more for like a window into WP buffs to make us just like two people can get to know us. So it’s really more about like a remote team and people can come and see, like, what are they doing?

Oh, there’s a couple in front of a huge in Japan. And like, there’s Diego just ran like a hundred mile race, like in the middle of the desert and it’s like, whoa, okay. So I know this team does this stuff, but like I wanted to learn more about them as, uh, as people. And so we tried to use NCA. Exactly. So we try to use Instagram more for that.

Does that sound. Decent

Shane Barker: manifestation. Yeah, because cool. Yeah, because you, you’re probably, I mean, the idea of it is, is that you want to show that there’s real people behind this and people kind of like that. Right. Because I want to know, like, I can go take Joe’s course, but when I see that you’re doing this and you’re traveling and doing this and I’m like, God, it seems like he’s out there.

A great life. And obviously it’s because of his course and the knowledge that he has. And he’s obviously doing some things that are right, right. It’s not like he’s, if you had on your Instagram, you’re like homeless and you know, eating out of garbage cans or like, I don’t know if I’m going to take Joe’s chorus because he’s, he’s eating garbage cans.

Not that you can’t eat out of garbage cans. I’m just saying they might think that you’re not doing good. Right? There’s that they’re judging you obviously. So totally judging

Joe Howard: this new millennial trend of going in and grabbing fresh food from the garbage. Not bad yet. So people may think I’m cool for doing that.

I don’t know.

Shane Barker: You know, what’s crazy about that and this, and this is I’m going, I’m going right. And we were just talking left. There was just, I was, I was watching the, uh, Charlie Manson, Charlie man’s like his little group of people that he had, the way that they would get food, the way that they didn’t have to do, they would go into trash cans.

So would go to like bakeries the day after. So when you said that, I was like, oh, I guess that probably could be pretty fresh. Food is in plastic bags. And so when you said that, I, I instantly thought. Charlie Manson. I mean, who doesn’t think about

Joe Howard: before? And I want people to associate it with that. So great.

Shane Barker: Millennials and Charlie Manson. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s like hand in hand. There we go. Just kidding, by the way. Yeah.

Joe Howard: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I will also want to talk about, because we talked, touched about this a little bit, like the word influencer people. Sometimes it can be like a trigger word for certain people who are just like, don’t want any of that language.

I like if people have followed me on. Vale and seen like my cover photo of my background. This is the thing that I feel like has I’ve done. That’s been the most, like, I don’t know. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable in this. Like, is this kind of influencer sort of thing that I’ve done? Because my cover photo on Twitter is me like sitting in a hammock on my laptop, like in front of this icy mountain, in the background.

Okay, cool. I’m not going to lie. Okay. It’s a super dope picture. That was awesome trip. It was really cool. But even putting it up there, I almost felt like it was a real moment. Like I was doing work in like in the hammock and someone took a picture of me, but it’s, it’s kinda, it almost feels like show off a little bit to me.

How do you meld that? Like, I want to get more followers and I want people to think I’m impressive because. You know, some of the stuff I do is impressive. Like of course, like, um, I want to be humbled, but like some of the stuff I do is kind of cool. So like, I do want to share that. How do you find the balance between, you know, sharing or may potentially oversharing and trying to be humble and real?

Uh, I feel like there’s a middle ground there, but I’m not exactly sure how to find it.

Shane Barker: See the way I look at that is like, I did see your picture and I did instantly think God, what a dude. No, I’m totally kidding. No, no, no. For me, I looked at that and I was like, that’s where I would want to be. Right.

Because I have a whole remote team too. So for me, I travel a lot and I, the, the hammock in the mountains behind it and you and your lab, Literally could have been me. Like if I sent that picture to my wife and cut out the head, she’d be like, when did you go there? Like, it looks right. Obviously we’re like twins.

Right? We look identical. But yeah. So, no, I mean, for it’s, I don’t think there’s a problem with that, right. Because you’re just saying, Hey, this is a great picture. And this is kind of the lifestyle that I live because I’m a remote worker. Right. And I, I travel and I do, I’m going to look kind of a digital nomad.

There’s not a problem with them. There’s people that want that type of lifestyle. And guess what, if you’re going to go do WordPress stuff. The cool part about WordPress, all you really need is an internet connection. Right? So to be able to get onto that. So I think it keeps the dream alive of like WordPress is the avenue for making money and for traveling, if that’s what you want to do.

Right. So your picture to me, screams freedom free it screams like, Hey, I can get some stuff done, but look at this view, right. And people can look at that as bragging or like, oh, you’re just bragging. I’m like, well, but at the end of the day, you would like to be here. I mean you would, right? I mean, let’s, let’s just be honest.

It’s not. And so to me, I mean, that’s like me, so I, I do speak in events and on my profiles, I have pictures of me at a speaking event now, my bragging or my maybe a teeny bit, but I’m also telling people I’m a speaker. I want them to know that. Right. And for you, you want to say, listen, I work hard, but also, and I’ve got some great views around me and I’m enjoying it.

I’m enjoying, I have this work-life balance. I’m sitting back and drinking a beer and I’m on my laptop and getting a few things done. Like there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, I guess you have to figure out what, what you think your audience likes. Right? If it, if I think the audience wants a lifestyle like fat, I would think I going say, most people I do.

Let’s say, well, I’ll just speak for myself. I enjoy that. I look at that and go, man, that would be awesome. I would love to go to that mountain. I’d love to be in that hammock and I’d love to be hanging out like that. So for me, I think that’s awesome that you’re doing that. You know what I mean? That’s, for me, that’s more of a lifestyle thing, but I’m a traveler.

I like doing that. So I like those pictures. I go, God, where was that at? And then I’m going to engage with that. Cause I want to know, like, how do I get to that spot? How do I get to your hammock that you were just in right to me. I don’t look at it as like bragging, you know? I mean, I guess if, if you were like saying, oh man, another million dollars today and crushing it and you know, it’s like, you’re like slapping kids on the way out.

Look at me, I’m a big deal then. Oh, okay. I get it. Josie, big deal. Like, you know, but I don’t even have to go tell everybody and just slap kids on the way out of the door, you know, it was kind of weird, but the idea of it is, is like, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I really, really don’t. I think if people have a problem with that, then that’s their own.

Things like, why would you do put a picture of that? Like, to me, it’s like, what’s the problem with it? Like you weren’t, there’s nothing wrong with it in my opinion. And I just think you’re just showing that you’re living a good life and there’s nothing, you know, what do you think social media is for guys?

That’s why everybody’s happy on Facebook. And I put my air quotes up. Everybody’s happy, you know, that’s we want to show like, Hey, what we’re out there doing and having fun and, you know, taking part and, you know, enjoy. Yeah,

Joe Howard: probably important as you’re. I think anybody who grows their own business or as an entrepreneur, as they start to see success in their business, like you’re almost by default going to have more visibility in the space.

And it’s important to remember, like, not everyone is going to love you and hopefully not everyone is going to hate you, but you’re never going to make everyone happy. So it’s important to like, you know, What you think your audience likes and not try and appease every single person out there.

Shane Barker: You’ll never make everybody happy.

This is the thing too, is you have to realize if people start to hate you, then that means you’re on the radar. I mean, really though it really is. And people don’t, it’s hard for people to understand that, but really at the end of the day, if people are starting to hate you, for whatever reason, there’ll be a small amount of.

Let them hate you just let, just let it roll right off yet. Cause at the end of the day, that means you’re on their radar and that’s okay. That’s not a bad thing.

Joe Howard: Yeah. I actually love that. I kind of want to even highlight what you just said a little bit more. Like we’ve had people duplicate our entire website over at WP buffs, trying to just duplicate what we, what we’ve done and.

Not like we teach a course on it. So we want people to get into the maintenance space, but like we’ve had people like literally duplicate like word for word, the exact website on like three different occasions. And the first time it happened, I got pissed. I was like, what the fuck? Like this is BS. Like, I can’t believe they did this.

And by the third time I was just like, Oh, so like we’ve gotten somewhere like, like it’s almost flattering that you want to like duplicate my business. Like thank you. But like, don’t do that, but like, it’s cool. Like it, we’ve gotten to a point where we’ve made a lot of people happy, but there are some people who are going to take those, this, I guess wasn’t a hater example, but it’s a taking it in the negative direction example and that’s going to happen as you gain more visibility places.

So I totally hear that.

Shane Barker: I mean, trust me, I it’s, you know, somebody when copied something word for me, I’m not going to be happy either. But the cool part is, is that people are copying you, right? Which that means that you’re a leader. That means somebody is looking up to you and, and even, you know, and you have to realize, I’ve realized this over the years, I used to be really protective of whatever I was doing to this.

I can’t tell people this can’t do this. And now I’m just an open book. I’ll share anything. I’ve done open this are they? This is what works. This is what doesn’t work because for me. It’s just easier that way. Right. And that way I pull in clients cause they go, man, it seems like you’ve done this. And you said you had issues here.

And this is just very transparent about things. You know, I was always worried back 10 years ago that like one of my other businesses that somebody would, you know, they’re going to take this and they’re gonna be able to open a business like. The thing is they don’t have the experience that I have. They don’t have the 25 years of what I’ve went through the right turns and left turns and this, and being slapped in the face, being kicked here and doing this, like that is built my business today.

And there’s nobody that can do that the way that I did it. Right. I mean, they can learn some stuff from it, but there’s nobody that’s going to take over, you know, my, my thing that I’ve built. Right. And so when they go and they take it, it does suck because at the end of the. A little bastards, you know, cheating and you’re like, you know, I’m gonna find you, you know, and I’m going to shut your stuff down, but you know, it’s a flattering still.

Joe Howard: Yeah. I totally agree with that too, because you can take my entire website, put it somewhere else. Rebrand it. Good luck. Like the reason my business is successful, it’s not just because of the website. Like there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of painstaking, painful challenges, successes, and, and a lot of experience that got us where we are today and like good luck.

You know,

Shane Barker: it can’t happen overnight and you have a network, right? I mean, somebody to have to go to the podcast to do this, like they’re not going to. Th they’re going to try, they’re going to chip away at your business and they’ll take your two, 3%, whatever it is. But really at the end of the day, they’re not going to have the traction that you have it, it takes time to do that.

And it’s just not an overnight type thing.

Joe Howard: Yeah, totally. I would love to finish off a little bit here. Kind of wrap things up by. Opposite side of things we started and kind of talk to people about, like, if you’re starting off, like what can you do to like, you know, push more in this direction and push your social media out there and, you know, get more visibility and all this, I would love to talk a little bit about what the other side looks like.

Like once you’ve gained traction and have. You know, I guess I’ll say a large audience because it, it does differ depending on the context, right? For some industries, like a hundred thousand people is going to be a lot for some like five million’s a lot. But, uh, I want to talk a little bit about the pressure of having a lot of visibility online.

And how that can affect the kind of content you’re putting out there. Like, I feel like I don’t know anybody with like 5 million Instagram followers, but I would feel like they feel a little bit of pressure every time they push the publish button, because there are so many people looking at all their stuff.

I, but I think about people like Joe Rogan, who has this podcast that’s listened to by, you know, millions of people, but he just like keeps saying. Pretty real. And it’s just like, talks about whatever he wants to. So it’s kind of, it’s, it’s a there’s examples of each, but, um, have you found that like, people feel pressure to.

Keep what they’ve done to get those followers and keep putting out the same content, even as like they evolve as a person and change. Maybe they want to post new content, but they can’t because they have, you know, they got 200,000 followers who want X kind of content, even though they want to do Y content.

Shane Barker: So, well, first of all, so the reason why nobody talks shit about Joe Rogan is cause he can kick their ass. Right. And so that’s the first of all, that’s. Yeah, exactly. I mean, not to mention his contents. Good, but he can also, I mean, he actually, he actually had a heckler that I don’t know, there was like a video.

I have to look it up. I can’t remember the name of it, but like Joe Rogan got into it with a guy that was talking shit about him. And he went and met the guy and they like wrestled. And of course, Joe puts him in a hold and, you know, anyway, so I think it’s kind of funny, but the, when it comes down to conduct.

Here’s the issue and this is what people, some people don’t see. Like, what I teach at UCLA is I ask people, Hey, what are your, you know, what do you expect from the course? And what do you want to do? Right. So that’s like a, oh, I want to be in The Bahamas. And I want to be in a bikini and I want to do yoga and I wanna drink my child latte.

And that’s all great. If that’s the lifestyle you want to live, that’s perfect. You know, but what happens is, is. Well, people don’t understand about influencers is that when you’re an influencer, you’re you always, you have to be on stage. Right? And so what I tell people is, Hey, the minute you quit performing, like the minute you quit doing your podcast, you quit writing content.

Guess what’s going to happen. They’re going to go over to John. Your competitor. Right. And they’re going to start looking at his stuff and going well, you know, he’s given a lot of information out and Joe kind of, I don’t know what happened to Joe. Like I think he’s, you know, he’s over at that, he’s in that hammock and he lost his laptop and we don’t know what happened to him.

Right. It’s been two, three months. So it’s the same thing with Instagram and same thing of all this stuff. If you’re not producing content, And you start, you know, used to people, used to seeing you once a day, and then you’re doing it once a week and then it’s once a month and it’s once every two months they’re going to find somebody else.

And that’s just how it goes. And people don’t understand what that does to people. Like if you’re an influencer, some people go, oh, poor influencer. Like, you know, there’s people that are using the, what is it at? And they’re like these, you know, ninja and all these other guys that are making, you know, a million dollars a day or whatever the number is.

And he goes, yeah, but I have to work 18 hours a day and they go, oh yeah, but you’re making a hundred thousand dollars a day. Like, what are you complaining about? But like, literally if he doesn’t work 18 hours, if he took a day off. It could affect his income by a hundred thousand dollars, $200,000, $300,000.

Now I get it, you know, Hey, just take a day off. But the thing is, this is you. Once you’re in that limelight, you’re performing and you’re putting out content. And either everybody loves you and they’re clapping their hands or you put something out or you take a day off for God’s sake. Things can switch.

Things can change on you and it becomes an, it can happen overnight. I mean, I had one of my clients that was always in the limelight, always talking about this and doing this and had a great following. And you know, it was very heavily engaged. They all loved her. And, but one of the issues with her, she had like five bucks boyfriend’s a year, but she’s, she posts about all of them.

Oh, here goes John other things. Great. Oh, I’m here with Howard. I’m here with Michelle. We were like, God, you’re, you know, you’re out there just doing your thing. Like you’re having sex with like, and so people started kind of going off a little bit and she’s like, oh, I’m, can’t believe this. And we’re kind of talking about it.

And I’m like, Hey, I, I, it’s important to be honest. But the problem was that she’s always on stage. She was talking about everything in her life. Right. No different than a celebrity. Like seventies. Don’t always say that, but yet pop Razzi that’s running around. So when you’re sharing these intimate things in your life, You have to realize that there’s, you’re giving up something, right?

The Kardashians have billions of dollars. That’s awesome. But they can’t go anywhere. Right. That you know everything about their life, whether it’s true or not true, who knows. Right. But can you imagine jumping if you’re Kanye west or anybody and you jump into that family and you’re like, I don’t want a little privacy now, wrong family, not picking it, because guess what?

If you’re not on stage moving your hands and giving everybody a performance. I mean, that’s part of the whole thing is like, it’s one of the things being an influencer is like, you get to a point. I mean, you look at YouTube, like if you’re a prank. What’s the next level. Right. There’s always has to be something that’s the next level.

Right? So we have, you know, somebody that like, I mean, they used to have, what was it back in the day? How was the name of them? The guys who do all the stunts on MTV. And I might be dating myself on this. Like, I’m like all these guys that used to do crazy, crazy stunts and

Joe Howard: oh, is it like the jazz guys? Or

Shane Barker: like the jackass that was them?

I didn’t watch a lot of TV, so I was a little sheltered, but I mean, but that’s the thing is like, you know, next, you know, you’re, you know, hammering a nail into your privates or something. What like that wouldn’t happen three quarters ago or whatever three seasons ago, but now you’re so it’s like, what do you have to do?

And that’s what influencers are people that are influential. Like you always producing content, but they’re very emotional to the ups and downs of what happens. So when you get an algorithm, It’s hard for them, you know, and I know people go, oh, poor influencer. Now they’re not going to be able to get there, like, you know, gold Corvette or something.

It’s, it’s something it’s more than that. Right? Really. It comes down to it’s like, you have to be out there. You have to be putting on the show. And if you don’t put on the show, somebody else is going to do that. So, you know, you have to figure out is that the life that you want to live, do you want to put a magnifying glass on your.

Uh, assuming that’s what you’re, you know, that’s what you’re going to be doing to some kind of, you know, you can be a writer, a blogger, like I could walk on the street and not have anybody notice me. Right. I’m not that big of a deal by any means. Right. But if I was on Instagram and I was doing pranks and Dino’s big and Sacramento, who knows, I might not be able to do that.

Or, you know, it’s just, you got to figure out what you’re going to be giving up in regards to your life, what you’re willing to expose in your life for the world to see for, you know, potentially money.

Joe Howard: Yeah, good thing for people to think about. Now, if they’re starting off or starting to get a little bit of visibility in whatever space you’re in, uh, do you want to keep rolling, you know, go in going in that direction?

Um, or do you want to, you know, grow your business or do your thing without as much visibility? Um, I guess people have the choice, but, uh, cool. I think that’s a good place to, to wrap up today. Um, Shane, thanks for coming on. Let’s give people the new course that you have started, how to be an influencer dot.

Shane Barker: Um, yeah, you guys can go over there. We actually have an email templates that you guys can use. You can download them for free and you can actually send them out to brands. So the idea of it is you can use these as templates to pitch brands that you want to work with, um, and then if anybody needs to get in contact with me, you either obviously the how to be an influencer.com is the site for influencers. Um, if you’re a brand or an agency and you’re looking to learn more about influencer market, you want to jump in the space.

I do personal workshops as well, but you can reach me. This is my personal email at just Shane and that’s S H a N e@shanebarker.com. I’m going take a look at the website, sign up for the newsletter and the. Cool man. You

Joe Howard: beat me to the second question, which was, you know, where can people find you? If you’re starting off and you don’t have as much social clout or whatever, or you just kind of want to learn more about this stuff, uh, had been influenced or.com is a great place to get started.

, and go check out. Yeah. Shane has some free templates. I’m on the site right now and I was just checking out some of those free templates that look pretty, pretty cool. Social profiles. Can people find you on like Twitter or Instagram or. Yeah,

Shane Barker: you can go on Twitter. So Twitter, just Shane underscore a Barker I’m on Instagram.

It’s just Shane Barker. And then also LinkedIn at Shane Barker as well. I was able to grab all of them except Twitter. Um, I’ve threatened the guy, I’ve done everything. I’ve sent people over to his house and he just won’t give up it. And so, you know, what are

Joe Howard: you doing? We’ve got the same problem. Some, someone who has never tweeted and never like no activity on the profile has WP buffs.

So we are the WP buffs, but I’ve tried. Patent or the trademark on WP buffs and still fits. They’re technically not violating Twitter’s term up. Tell me about a closed system. Doesn’t care about me because I’m not paying them advertising dollars.

Shane Barker: That’s exactly it. People can squat on stuff unless you’re will Smith or something.

Nobody’s going to listen to you when it comes to the squatting. There

Joe Howard: you go. I’ll get well a DM and see if he can help me. Um, cool, man. Okay. Last but not least, I always ask our guests to ask our audience to give this podcast a little five star iTunes review. So if you wouldn’t mind giving our audience a little ask, I’d appreciate it.

Shane Barker: Hey guys, what’s going on? This is Shane Barker, also known as Wolverine. Once you guys to go do as a huge favor and give us a five-star rating for this podcast, man, I really.

Joe Howard: Thank you, man. Appreciate that. Uh, yeah. When you leave our view, make sure you leave Shane’s name in the comments, something maybe you learned about the episode or something.

Cool. You’re going to try with influencer stuff. Uh, yeah, we’ll shoot a screenshot and shoot it over to him and thank him for getting us a little iTunes review there. Uh, WP mrr.com forward slash iTunes, Gavin, redirect going on right there to make it nice and easy for you. Uh, if you’re a new listener to the show, you already been Shaw.

TV shows, why not binge something that’ll help you grow your WordPress business. Go check out some old episodes, WP mrr.com forward slash podcast. We’ve got tons of episodes on there. So no matter what challenge or thing you’re facing right now, it probably did an episode about it. So it goes through the old logs and see if you can find something that you can listen to maybe later today or this weekend that will, uh, will shed some light there.

Uh, if you have questions for us on the show, Christie, I’d love to do Q and a episodes. So we’d love to answer some more of your questions. Anything? Well, I don’t care. It could be. WordPress could not be. WordPress could be totally random. I don’t care. We’ll answer them on the show. Uh, yo@wpmrr.com, I man, that inbox personally.

So I will get back to you and we’ll get your question answered on the pod WP, mrr.com. If you are reporting. Agency in the WordPress space, or maybe you’re a freelancer you want to do more monthly recurring revenue stuff. Uh, so we’ve opened source the stuff we do at WP buffs, 24 7 care plans, open sourced.

It created a video course around it. Shane and I are big course people. So we have the video course here as well. And. How course there you go. Cool. If you’re interested in that, go check it out. It’s cool. Course. Shane’s cool guy. He’ll teach you some stuff for sure. Uh, this college professor can do. Uh, help you move forward in that area.

Cool. We will be back next Tuesday for another episode, because like Shane said, don’t want to stop producing content. We want to keep putting new, new, great content in front of you. So we’re going to keep going. So Shane, thanks a lot for being on man. It’s been real. Hey, thanks for having


Shane Barker: Joe.

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