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In today’s episode, Joe talks to Joe Casabona, a creator of online courses at Creator Courses and for LinkedIn Learning, and hosts a podcast called How I Built It. They share similar sentiments on parenting toddlers, mental health check while juggling work and parenting, and expanding a Circle community among other WordPress related responsibilities.  

What to Listen For:

  • 00:00 Intro
  • 02:16 Welcome back to the pod, Joe!
  • 02:37 On vaccination roll-out
  • 06:20 Staying at home with 2 kids
  • 11:18 Juggling between family life and work schedule
  • 15:13 The challenges of parenthood
  • 19:10 Adjusting to and managing time allocation
  • 23:12 “Hire help before you need it.” – Joe Casabona
  • 26:40 External feedback can sometimes help solve roadblocks
  • 30:23 Growing the podcast and cultivating a Circle community
  • 35:11 Live streaming on Circle?
  • 39:58 Using a community to drive traffic and product sales
  • 45:28 Giving people a reason to stay in your community  
  • 51:15 Where to find Joe online!

Episode Resources:

Podcast Transcript:

Joe Howard: [00:00:00] Oh, the folks Joe Howard here this week, I got to sit down with the one and only Joe Casabona. What can you say about Joe? He is, he’s just the best, Joe and I got to chat about a couple of big topics this week. I really, honestly, I invited him to come back on the podcast because he has just launched a community on circle for how I built it.

And I wanted to pick his brain about that, but we actually got super into the WP dad life. I’m talked about family or kids or what it’s like to split the responsibility of work and family time. Some strategies he’s come up with to set better expectations for himself when he’s, you know, has days, uh, at a time where he’s really spending all of his time with his kids.

And yeah, it was a really cool conversation. So if you want to hear that WP dad piece of the conversation, keep listening to the beginning of this episode of the first 25 or 30 minutes. Really. Right. But if you’re really more into the story and a bit more detail about Joe’s circle community, uh, how he’s building it, how he’s trying to get more engagement, how he’s trying to drive more folks there, what his religious trying to do with the community.

What’s the purpose of it? That kind of stuff feel free to fast forward to probably about 30, 30, one 32 minutes into this episode without further ado. Please welcome, Joe. Casabona enjoy today’s episode

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Or become a WP buffs affiliate to earn 10% monthly payouts every month for the lifetime of every client. And finally, if you’re looking to sell your WordPress business or website, check out the WP buffs acquisition unit, learn more about all3@wpbuffs.com. Right. We are live on the pod, Joe. To Joe’s in the podcast with once again will tell me, uh, what’s going on,

Joe Casabona: [00:02:20] man.

Oh, not too much. Keep him busy live in that pandemic life still.

Joe Howard: [00:02:26] I know it feels like we’re getting towards the end, but it’s like still pandemic life. So you said before we got started here, like you got your first shot, so you’re Hey, you’re moving.

Joe Casabona: [00:02:35] Yeah. Halfway there really excited. Apparently Pennsylvania has done a really good job of distributing the vaccine actually the day.

After I got my first shot, my hospital emailed me and they were like, Hey, we have a vaccine for you. And I’m like, Oh wow, you’re a day late. But thank you. Give it to somebody else who needs it.

Joe Howard: [00:02:53] I’ve heard that. Similar story from other people who have like two or three options for shots. Like everyone seems to be like getting emails, like, come get a shot here, come get a shot there.

So, but I’m glad you were able to get it. Do you have to, so you got, you didn’t get the Johnson and Johnson. You got one of the two.

Joe Casabona: [00:03:09] Yeah, I got Pfizer, which I was happy about. I heard that Madonna hits a little harder than, uh, than Pfizer does. And. So, yeah, I got that one from like a Rite aid, uh, shout out to my wife’s coworker who like has the Rite aid website down to a science.

She was able to book me. And my father-in-law

Joe Howard: [00:03:29] nice. Someone told me who got Medina that day, like recommended, like to take the day off work the day after you get the maternity a second shot, because it’s like totally rocked them.

Joe Casabona: [00:03:39] That that’s what I’ve been hearing too. And I don’t know too many people who’ve gotten Madonna, but I haven’t heard any.

I haven’t heard anything horrible, but. So it was probably just like certain precautions. My parents got Johnson and Johnson and they both felt fine.

Joe Howard: [00:03:54] Yeah. I’m still searching around for my options. So that’s kind of like every day, I’m kind of like, Ooh, like, okay, a little more research. What’s going on. I’m at my parents’ place in Bethesda, Maryland right now.

Thus anybody watching on YouTube? It’s like, where are you? What is this weird basement like room you’re in. That’s where I am. Uh, so. Yeah, I’m trying to figure out Maryland options for the next five weeks or so. And seeing if there’s something, but it’s like every day it’s like something new may come up.

So I’m hopeful that, uh, I’ll be able to either get one of those to one, maybe three weeks apart, which is one of the vaccines. And then obviously the J and J is just one shot. So hopefully something will come.

Joe Casabona: [00:04:36] Yeah, absolutely. And I I’ve been reading stuff that like, even the first shot for both, uh, Madonna and Pfizer are like pretty effective.

And I don’t know how much that is like fake news. So I’m not going to like throw caution to the wind or anything. Yeah. I’m not a doctor. I’m a little bit more relaxed, you know, like the delivery guy comes to my house and his mask is like off and I’m like, man, can you just like adjust your mask? Like please.

And I’ll be a little bit more relaxed about that. I think because now both adults in the house are vaccinated.

Joe Howard: [00:05:08] My parents are, um, we’re staying as parents or my parents right now. And they’re both vaccinated with both shots and that. And that’s what my mom said too. She said like, nothing in my life has really changed day to day because, you know, we still wanna be respectful of people who haven’t gotten the shot and stuff, but it takes a lot of stress off, I think for her.

And that’s just like on the day to day, she can be a little, not less cautious, but less stress that she could get. COVID and that’s like a, that’s a big stressor, I think, off of, off of their shoulders because they are older. So.

Joe Casabona: [00:05:44] Yeah, absolutely. And like, I, you know, I’ve got asthma, I’m overweight or whatever.

And so like, I, you know, I don’t know my doctor at the beginning of this was like, he’d probably be fine if you got it. But like, who knows like perfectly healthy 40 year olds. I’m not that I’m 40, but I have like died from it or whatever. And I’m just, I’m just real excited now that like my wife and I will be able to go on like a proper date.

Because in-laws are vaccinated. They’ll be able to watch the kids and we’ll go out and I won’t be like, is that person breathing next to me? Like, it’s just really, really excited. Yeah,

Joe Howard: [00:06:18] totally. And how’s, uh, how’s home life. You have. Now two kids at home. So kids too. So probably man, I was lucky to be able to book an hour with you right now from get you on the, on the five.

So yeah, how’s how’s WP dad.

Joe Casabona: [00:06:34] I mean, it’s really good. It’s stressful. Obviously. I don’t know if you’ve heard of better help. But, um, it’s like

Joe Howard: [00:06:41] your offer that we offer accounts to folks in our team who, Oh, that’s amazing. You use that option. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Casabona: [00:06:47] If your team is listening, I’ve been doing it for a few months.

It’s been great. You know, it’s like, I’ve always been like one of those, like. I’m a macho man. Uh, like I don’t need counseling or whatever. I know I’m totally legit. I’m good. Good. Just all men through it or whatever. But like, now that I have kids and like my mood affects my kids, I’m like, maybe I should at least like talk to somebody about, maybe I can handle stress better.

Right. And so like when my wife works, it’s just me and the kids for 14 hours. And that’s a lot. And my therapist was like, yeah, yeah. She’s like, no one is meant to spend this much time alone with their kids. And I’m like, that’s like a weird thing to say, but also like, yeah, that’s true. But also like my in-laws, my, my mother is gone, my mother-in-law is going through cancer treatment and my father-in-law works.

And so it, you know, they say it takes a village to raise kids and it’s, it’s just me on an Island with my kids while my wife’s at work. So. That’s been really helpful, but it’s been, it’s been fun. I’m constantly reminding myself that I’m getting bonus time with my daughter right now. Right. Cause she’d be at school and I get to spend like full days with her and watching how different my son is.

So my daughter is four. My son is, uh, eight months and seeing how different he is from my daughter, when she was that age, he like eats everything. Like he has no sense of self-preservation. Whereas, like if my daughter crawled towards the stairs, I’d be like stop and she would stop. And he’s like, nah, I want to see what it feels like to go down these stairs.

So it’s just been fun to like seeing their differences and how they each develop. It’s great.

Joe Howard: [00:08:28] Yeah. I’ve I feel like I have a lot of friends at this point to have two kids. They say things like, well, the first kid was actually like pretty easy, but the second kid is so different and it’s so interesting.

And some of them are like, I’m glad I had the first kid first, because if I had the second, like, kind of like harder to raise kid, like, I dunno if I’d have two kids right now. So it’s just kind of like, it’s funny how different they are. I’m starting to think about that with, you know, Mose Marson is 15 months now or so.

And man, it’s like, That’s amazing and Sam grow up and I’m like, if I have like a second character point, be similar to him, he’s pretty easy. For the most part, like. Really good demeanors. That’s a really good demeanor, like pretty easy, mostly it’s like, if I have a second one, they’ll be pretty similar.

Right. But there’s like, just cause they have similar DNA. Like it’s like no by no means means they’ll be similar. It could be totally different. Sounds like that was somewhat the case with you. Like pretty different, huh?

Joe Casabona: [00:09:23] Yeah. It’s so, and like he’s still a good kid. Like this is totally normal for an eight month old, right.

To like. Like usually like, uh, and again, this is like, this better help has helped with this. Cause I, I have a therapist who specializes in like child development and toddler play and stuff like that. And so she’s like, yeah, this is she’s like your daughter. Isn’t a, not an anomaly and like more ways than one.

Cause like she also has a really, like, she asked me like, who’s the arbiter of iPad time. Uh, cause she’s like so smart and I love it. Um, but uh, she’s like the expert I know. Right. I don’t know, like what’s normal. So like having a third party to be like, yes, that’s not normal. You’re like, that’s totally normal.

I’m like, great. But like all of this stuff is totally normal. It’s just like the, the fallacy that we had was. We are pretty good with the first one. I will be fine. Like, we’re ready now. Like we’re actual parents and we’ve been through it, but it’s like, now you have a toddler who wants all of your attention and you have an infant who actually needs all of your attention or he’s going to choke on something.

So it’s, it’s different challenges, but it’s more fun than it is work. Like, you know, it’s so it’s, it’s just like, hell, like. Eat something and I’ll get mad at him. And then they’ll look at me and like, give me like this sheepish grant. And I’m like, all right, fine.

Joe Howard: [00:10:43] Totally. I totally agree. Cause I always thought like, that’s not going to work on me.

Like, I’m going to be like a dad, you know, I’m going to teach this kid, you know, what needs to be like, but. I’m falling forward to every time, something like he’s crying a lot or he’s like a little sick and upset about something or he just like trips and starts crying about something. Cause he’s, you know, he’s learning to go from walking to running right now.

So it’s like a lot of falling down and it’s just like one smile and I’m like, damn it. Like, God,

how is, um, how has that been? Around the work that you do, because like anybody in the WordPress space knows you do like a bunch of stuff in the WordPress space. How is this affecting your like, bandwidth to be able to, I guess, like make a living based on your WordPress work, but also just like, honestly, like work enough that you feel like you’re still having an impact on your work.

Are you feeling like that’s slowing down? Are you feeling like you’re able to split that a little bit? Is it like two kids? I have one kid and I’m feeling like that’s a lot. So two must really know. If two’s like three times as much work. Right. So how is that going? Are you feeling like overwhelmed? Are you feeling like things are still going okay.

In terms of splitting that responsibility,

Joe Casabona: [00:11:57] if you had talked to me like two weeks ago before I shipped my last LinkedIn learning course, uh, I would have been like, everything is on fire and I can’t handle it, but. The way we grow is by learning from mistakes. And so I, you know, we’ve been in this for a year.

It’s not like it’s, I’ve had a kid, I’ve had two kids for eight months. It’s not like it should be much of a surprise that there are going to be days where I can’t work. Uh, but I’m always optimistic. And so, uh, after I shipped a LinkedIn learning course, I took a day and I just planned out all of my major projects for this quarter.

Uh, so now I know my bandwidth and I have timelines for everything. But, yeah, it’s tough. It’s tough because, uh, the coveted, simultaneous nap time, uh, has become a rarity recently. And so my daughter’s like kind of aging out of naps. So we shortened her nap time. Okay. Uh, and my son has decided that afternoon naps are not his jam.

He prefers like a late morning and then like late afternoon nap. And usually I would have like two hours, even on the days my wife works. Uh, to get some work done, but now it’s like half hour at best, unless they’re both just like so tired, but

Joe Howard: [00:13:11] for, I don’t know, it’s like kids will usually until they’re like four or five months old, usually they’re super pretty.

And like they’ll sleep when they sleep, but then they start to develop this like to Napa day thing. Usually it’s like, that’s how Moe was. And he actually just recently went like two weeks ago. He graduated from two naps to one now just one big nap in the middle of the day. So there’s like, there’s a lot of change happening.

And when you have two kids, like, especially the difference in age and of yours, like two naps outside of the one nap potentially is like, well, no, one’s napping at the same time. So I always have to watch someone. So like, that’s the challenge

Joe Casabona: [00:13:45] here. Yeah. That’s exactly right. And like you try, I try to time it and like, Theresa’s nap is a little bit more fluid.

So if I’m like, well, Louis is probably going to go down at like two I’ll slide Theresa’s nap back a little bit, but like there’s no guarantee. So it’s, it’s tough. It’s like constant learning and yeah, I would for parents out there who are like TNF sounds better than one, one big nap in the middle of the day.

That’ll be great. Right. Cause then I can just expect it. I can be like, all right, get me to one o’clock or get me to noon. Um, I don’t want to sound disgruntled. Like I love playing with my kids and like yesterday during Louis’s nap, Theresa just kinda like walked around, outside in the rain, like coming to herself.

And it like filled my heart with so much joy. Uh, but like you need those breaks so that you can refresh and be patient with your kids. And instead of like snapping at them, like explain to them like what you’re feeling and what they might be feeling. So, um,

Joe Howard: [00:14:42] I felt that way too. I thought I’d missed two naps and in some ways I do, because it’s two breaks.

But the one I actually have like more time, I feel like to do stuff too with Morrison because I have like, he’s awake for like four or five hours at a time. So I can like go do a hike with him for two hours and not worry about, or just like spend time playing with it. And like, it just, it works a little better.

I just want to touch on the thing you said about. Like you said, like 80 to 90% of time with Morrison. It’s like, fantastic. But there’s that time where I get frustrated or I get annoyed with him and the, I never really understood how much energy it takes to not even raise kids, but just like spend time around a little person.

They just take a lot of energy and like even one day, like one 14 hour day with two kids, like. If you’re not a parent, like you just don’t understand the amount of energy it takes to like, do a full day. And like, it’s honestly brought me a whole new appreciation, not just for parents, but especially for like single parents who like, how do you, how do you do this yourself?

Like how. How do you do anything? Like I had like a back, like, you know, my back was out for a couple of days where I was like, Oh, like my back Sterling was great. She helped with the baby, like did some extra. And I was trying to do it. I cooked a little bit and stuff. I was just recovering, what would I have done if I was a single dad, like by myself.

So like, anyway, I think that. I just want to say like, yes, the getting your energy back is really important because it takes so much energy to put into these little ones to just like spend time with them. It’s crazy.

Joe Casabona: [00:16:22] Yeah. You’re like playing and then you’re like planning, like, Oh, when you’re like, I need to feed them and, Oh, don’t eat that.

Like, like my son, like I said, he like eats everything. Right. So like I put him down and I can’t just give dedicated time to Theresa until he naps because he’s eating stuff. But. Well, what you said about single parents, like, I’ve been thinking so much about that and like how lucky I am to have a wife who is an amazing mom.

And, uh, like I E you know, like my in-laws like, they have their own things going on right now, but my father-in-law like when he can, he will come over and, and he’s like so excited to be pop, pop and things like that. So like, I really feel for, for single parents, and there was a podcast I was listening to recently called advisory opinions where.

They actually like mentioned a few like charities that help out single parents and like do donations, things like that. And that’s something that I’ve looked more into because it’s, it is, it’s hard. Like it takes a village is no joke.

Joe Howard: [00:17:21] I totally agree. We’re kind of talking more about dead stuff than we originally going to talk about in this episode, because I was like, I do want to talk about circle community stuff at some point and the other work you’re doing, but I I’m actually enjoying talking about this.

I did want to touch on. Point you mentioned, which was because you don’t have as much time and bandwidth as a dad to two kids, especially spending a lot of time with your kids that you actually found that. Because I always I’ve had this, like, I don’t know if it’s like my brain trying to trick me, but it’s like, when I sit down to plan work, it sometimes doesn’t feel like work.

Like I’m not actually doing the work. So like, I shouldn’t spend that much time planning. Like I should spend maybe a little bit, but like more time doing the work. But what you said was kind of the opposite. You spent a lot of time, like thinking about what your quarter was going to look like and then mapping back, like how much bandwidth do I actually have to do these things?

And even you saying that like, It like made it like made me feel less stressed because I feel like Joe knows, like he has expectations. He’s like kind of set his expectations for what he can do. So that actually was like a interesting point. Cause I’m sure there are people listening out there who have kids and they spent so much time and we’re doing this episode a year, too late.

We probably should have done this episode like a year ago, so people could prepare for the pandemic, but people may be working from home for a little while longer with their kids potentially.

Joe Casabona: [00:18:37] So it sounds like that was a problem until you have it either.

Joe Howard: [00:18:40] Yeah, totally. But it sounds like that was really helpful for you just to like, kind of know what you needed to do, like over the longterm so that if you spend, cause I think that’s what stresses me out.

If I like spent, like, if I had a day where I was like, I want to try to work some today. Some that’s the problem. Right. I want to put some more like that. And I do like one hour of work. I’m like, I didn’t barely work. Like I’m stressed about it, but you had, because you’ve mapped it out. You’re like I spent an hour and that’s what I needed to spend a day.

And cool. That’s good. So does that sound like it’s on

Joe Casabona: [00:19:11] the right track? Yeah. Yeah. And it took a long time. Right. And, um, My therapist over a better help, like helped me manage those expectations a little bit. Cause he’s like, they’re going to be days where you don’t get to work and you just need to like, tell yourself that.

Right. And like, affirm that that’s okay. But you’re right. No matter how long, like I could have like a short nap and be upset when they wake up, because I didn’t finish what I was doing or they could have a long nap and I’d still be upset cause I was still in the middle of something. Right. And so, um, It’s it’s like not them waking up.

It’s that? Oh, I just wanted to finish this one more thing. I probably plan a little bit too much. Like I like the planning and the laying out ideas and stuff. I guess I’d like to think of it like a cooking in a kitchen, right. You can either just start cooking without like getting all the ingredients you need and all the pans out and whatnot.

But if you do that, you’re going to be like, Oh wait, I need the pepper. I need to go over here and get the pepper. Oh, I need to flip the burgers on whatever. And, and now maybe you’re like burning the food because you’re trying to get all the things. Whereas if you spend five to 10 minutes prepping. And putting all the ingredients where you need them and putting all the pots and pans where you need them and just like setting up your station, you’ll be able to cook more efficiently.

Right. And that’s kind of how I look at my workweeks, right. Is, uh, I have so many things I need to do. That if I just sit at my desk and go, what do I do today? I’m going to have this analysis paralysis so I can make a blog post, or I can make a YouTube video, or I should probably work on that course of this client work, but it’s not due until next week.

Whereas if I have a list of everything I need to do for the week, and then the night before I write, I’m going to do these three tasks tomorrow. Now, I know I can go check them off the list, or if I look at my production schedule and I say, okay, my Gutenberg course is the next big project I need to update.

Now I can break that into smaller tasks, uh, moving towards another deadline.

Joe Howard: [00:21:10] Yeah. The ability to map out and like use that mapping out as a way to break down. What you need to do in a given time period that can like those times, you know, those pieces can add up to a bigger piece. I think that’s, that’s pretty important.

I don’t think I do enough of that, but I’ve, I’ve been putting a lot of work into trying to be a better manager. In my job. And a lot of that includes just having all of our like tasks in one place and like really being dedicated to our project management software. So that makes me think of that because, um, I feel like we’ve been doing that a lot more over the past month or so, and I feel just better about things.

I have more transparency into things. I just have a repeating tasks. It’s like, Check on all the tasks of all the people who reply to me, or like check time track for some of our hourly folks or, um, like monthly review of objectives and talk with people about it. So it feels less stressful, but just because I have it somewhere and it’s actually like formally in a place and I’ve been doing, I get getting a little coaching too.

And while she’s not my therapist, we were very clear at the beginning of our relationships. Like, technically I’m not your therapist, I’m not legally responsible for like X, Y, or Z, but. She plays a similar role in terms of like helping me to get more clarity and map things out. And again, although it’s not like, technically she’s not technically a therapist, I think if she helps with a lot of those challenges that I have around mental health and around like my role at the company, which continues to change.

And so everything you’re saying about like getting the support you need to. Move those things forward is like really valuable. And I was the same way with you out. I felt like not, yeah, I felt, I never felt the need to like have a therapist. I always felt like pretty good about things, but the last like three or four months has been more roller coaster, more up and down, more stress, more how, like, what is next step of this business?

Look like a w buffs, a lot of stuff. And I really did realize, like, I need help with this. And I think just like you getting that help to help me with some of these things was, you know, it hasn’t totally come to fruition yet, but I feel very much like I’m on the right track and I feel better about things, you know?

Joe Casabona: [00:23:25] Yeah, absolutely. It’s always good to get out of your head. And like they say, like hire before you need it. Right. And it’s like the same, like find somebody to talk to before you really it can I get like, uh, like slightly, I guess I’ve gotten pretty personal by saying I have a therapist, but like my breaking point was like one night.

Where like Theresa needed stuff. And my son was not sleeping. Like he must’ve been going through sleep progression, which is like, if you’re not a parent, it’s just like the worst thing it’s like, imagine somebody giving you like, yeah, like a treasure chest. And then like you take like one gold piece out of it.

And then like, did they just take it away? Like, that’s how sad it is. And so like, I, like, I had like a little bit of a breakdown and I like started crying and I’m like, I can’t do this. And like the next day I was like, I. Can’t I have kids that I need to think about. I have a family, um, like my daughter wasn’t nervous.

She’s like, daddy, are you okay? Like, I don’t want to put her in a situation where like my four year old has to take care of me. And so like, if you’re, if you’re feeling the stress of parenting, running a business, whatever, like better health gives you a free week too. So just check it out. Just talk to somebody it’s super helpful.

Joe Howard: [00:24:35] Yeah, just talking to someone is enormously helpful. Like getting it off your chest. It sounds UN honestly it still sounds. Like, it sounds like mumbo jackets wouldn’t be helpful when I say it, you know, it’s like one of those hazy things, it’s like that can’t really be that helpful. And I thought that for a long time, and honestly still in my mind somewhere, I’m kind of like, does it really help that much, but I’ve been through it now.

And I realized that like the clarity you get from not only like getting it off your chest, but. Working with someone who is professionally trained or has professional certifications to be able to ask the right questions, to be able to walk you and talk you through some of these challenges to get to a point of better clarity is enormously helpful because I think one of the things I’ve found is that I.

A lot of the answers I, I came up with, I had in my head somewhere, they were there in my brain level, but I just didn’t know where to find them or how to unlock them. If for people watching or listening, you don’t see me on YouTube. Like with my hand above my head doing weird brain stuff, but that. I found that just honestly working again with like a coach, who’s not a therapist, but she asks all these great questions.

I’m like, Oh yeah, I didn’t really think about it that way. What about, I didn’t even think about that, but that’s probably true. Oh, tell me more about that. Well, what do you, why do you think that, okay, now I’m talking to you more and it really does help me find like the. It helps me get to the why’s of things and like the true, almost the true nature of things.

We talk about like a fog being lifted and like being able to see that Island over there from the closeness of your ship or whatever, you know, but that’s kind of the idea where I’m like, Oh, like it’s like, I almost know like what’s true. And when my brain is. Either filling in blanks incorrectly, you know, the brain is crazy.

You know, he makes all these assumptions or jumps to assumptions. Like, no, like slow down. What’s really true here. What’s what are we really need to go from here? What decisions we need to make based on facts and not based on your brain, telling you X, Y, or Z, that’s totally not true. Right. So I think all that has been super helpful for me.

Joe Casabona: [00:26:38] Yeah. And like everybody has had this experience right. As a programmer, I’ve definitely had it where like you’re working through a problem and you can’t figure it out. And then you go to a coworker and start explaining that problem. And you’re like, I just figured it out. Like, thanks. Thanks for just letting me talk at you for five minutes.

And like, that’s exactly like any time I didn’t have to do anything great. But like, it’s the, it’s kind of the same thing where like, And I keep a note of like the things throughout the week that happened that I want to talk about, but like, it helps me figure out like what the real problems are, uh, and like where I’m being petty.

Like when you have to say something out loud, it really reinforces like either how silly it sounds or like the solution to the problem crystallizes, like just keeping it in your head. And nothing, it bounce around there and take up space and it doesn’t need to is I’ve learned, especially over the last year.

Like not the

Joe Howard: [00:27:36] healthiest. I do appreciate you sharing that personal story. I think yes. In the ideal world, we’d love to fix it, these issues before they begin, or how do I want to put this? You know, you want to handle challenges before they become challenges. You want to nip things in the bud and yes, like for me, yeah, I would love to, I probably should have started doing more formal coaching like months ago, probably years ago.

And yeah. I’m catching up on that, but a lot of times, and I think in your case, sometimes you kind of do you almost have to. Reach a breaking point in order to understand the gravity of the situation. Because, you know, we deal with security for people. Like a lot of people are like whatever, and they get hacked and they’re like, shit.

Like I need security now. It’s like, no, you needed security six months ago. So I tell people this story in a different context. So I should know the same about myself, but a lot of times it’s harder to know it about yourself. But anyway, I think that that’s enlightening for probably a lot of people listening too, because I’m sure a lot of people have had.

Situations like that. But at the end of the day, you’ve talked about, you’ve talked about this earlier in this episode, you know, learning from those things is going to be really important and, you know, understanding when you’re at a point where you need to take action. It’s hard sometimes if you don’t have that

Joe Casabona: [00:28:50] pressure of it.

Yeah. And I’ll just say like, my brother, I talked to him about this and he was like, really proud of me for like getting therapy at all. And I’m like, I’m not depressed. He’s like, everyone’s a little depressed, but like, you don’t need to be depressed to seek. Therapy or to talk to somebody, right? Like I’m still a generally happy guy.

I smile all the time. I’m I make a lot of every time I see

Joe Howard: [00:29:13] you, man. It’s like a big smile. It puts a smile on my face.

Joe Casabona: [00:29:16] Thank you. That’s like my Mo right. And, and I just, my, my reason, my, why was because when I did get stressed, I didn’t handle it the best way. And now that I have. Like when I got stressed about certain things I should say.

Right. Uh, and I don’t want that to negatively impact my kids. So maybe I was doing everything right to the best of my ability, but I wanted to make sure spoiler alert. I wasn’t obviously, cause I’m not like a child expert, but I just wanted to make sure. And I’ve learned a lot that has helped me parent as well.

So I am, I, maybe I said that earlier, but I just want to reinforce that like. We all have our different reasons and there doesn’t need to be like some kind of negative label or whatever.

Joe Howard: [00:30:00] Couldn’t say that better. Totally agree. All right. We’ve talked about a lot of dad and personal stuff. I wasn’t even planning to get in today, but we just got right into it and it was perfect.

I do want to take a chance to talk about your circle community and all the stuff we do. I said before we started recording, I was like, Joe, we’re going to like start chatting. And then eventually you’ll tell people, like all the stuff you do in WordPress. And right now, 30 minutes of the episodes, like, okay, do you want to tell people what to do with WordPress?

But. Tell folks about a little bit, I guess if you’re ready to tell people about circling, I don’t know if it’s open to everybody, if anybody can join, but I guess talk a little bit about the circle community because I’m super interested in community building and that circle thing. And we’re trying to do something similar, but have to discuss like how we want to do that in a way that’s unique for our audience.

How do we help add value to them and stuff? So. Um, trying to learn from the best. So tell, tell me a little bit about the circle community you’re putting together.

Joe Casabona: [00:30:55] Yeah. Well, let me just say first that if you did not listen to, uh, the, uh, the episode of WP MRR with Corey Haim, you should 100% and listen to that.

Cause Corey offers some amazing tips, um, for getting things started. I can tell you that I slept on the community aspect a little bit too long, right? I launched courses four years ago. Um, my Gutenberg chorus was by far the most popular one and I just kind of let people buy the course and then just like, let them forget about me, uh, with a community they won’t, you can strike while the iron’s hot.

Right? You launched the course. You get people enrolled, you add them to the community. Uh, so when I launched the build something club, which is my podcast membership, I knew how important having the community aspect of it. Was for members. I should have cultivated the community a little bit better before I launched the club.

Um, so, uh, Joe, as you alluded to, there is a free and paid aspect of it. There’s essentially three sections of the community. One is the free section where people can kind of come share their work and discuss the latest episode and whatever else they want to do. The second section is the build something club for podcast members.

Uh, where they can they’ll have access to exclusive content. They can talk about the, the build something more, which is the extra pre and post show included in the, how I built it episodes. Uh, and then there’s the third section, which is essentially the Academy area. So if you’ve enrolled in any of my courses, you will have access to those spaces where you can discuss things about the course.

And so at the end of my more recent courses, At the end of each video, I say, Hedo head on over to the community and answer this question or whatever. What I’m doing now is I have posts Monday, Wednesday, Friday, latest episode, I call the Wednesday post the mid day mend, like, what are you working on that you’re struggling with?

Maybe we can help. And then the F Friday is for like the wins, right? Like what did you do this week that you’re super proud of. And right now it’s, it’s mostly me and my virtual assistant. She makes the posts and like likes things and. I try to be active in that community as, as much as possible, which I think a founder has to do.

Right. Because a lot of people are paying for access to, to the founder, the community owner, right? Yeah.

Joe Howard: [00:33:26] So we used to, I have a Facebook group for WP, M R R, and there were like a lot of reasons. I didn’t like that. And at that point, I didn’t want to really like be making posts there. And I didn’t really want to be involved as a founder, which I, I think I agree with you.

It’s important. I think the issue was, it was just like, it was Facebook and I’m kind of like a fuck Facebook universe person. Like I’m not a big person. I’m not a big fan of a lot of things. Facebook. Does nor am I really a fan of how their groups work, because they’re just like, it doesn’t work very well.

So I think that I would actually be more excited to be more involved if I had cause circle the community itself, it kind of feels like Facebook. E like, it’s like the UX is somewhat similar, but you have a lot of tabs and sections on the side and it’s most importantly, like not on Facebook, so it’s completely like, right.

So to me, I think I’d enjoy like having my own space to play around with. I think the it’s interesting, the community, I think we made a similar mistake or misstep as you did, which was like, we had our WP MRR virtual summit last year. It was awesome. You know, we had hundreds of people there and attendants and then we kind of, didn’t really like.

Touch base with people for awhile. And we’re about to like, launch, like do our second year of it. And it’s like, well, how do we do a better job of like keeping people in the loop and like continuing these important conversations and not just kind of like, thanks for attending, like see you next year. Like we should probably like do more than that.

So that’s our thought about around community. One question about circle I have specifically for you, do you do any live streaming directly into circle or into their community slash do you know if. It’s on the homepage of circles that, so they have like a live thing. So I’m like, okay, it should be easy, but I actually haven’t found a lot of documentation about exactly how you do that.

So I’m just wondering if you do any live streams.

Joe Casabona: [00:35:16] I haven’t yet, but it’s on my list because one of my membership perks is, is exactly that right? It’s like the, the live streams for members only. So the way I thought I would do it, um, until I explore like the capabilities of circle more is. Have an unlisted live stream on YouTube that I would embed into a post that’s how I would have done it on my WordPress site.

And then you can embed the chat like below, but the YouTube chat. Yeah. The YouTube chat, which that’s interesting, which you don’t need to do on circle. Right. If I. If you’re just putting in a post, people can comment and things like that, and you can monitor it. I haven’t looked into it, but it’s definitely on my radar.

And then I was looking at like an app Sumo deal today that seems to allow you to live stream to multiple places. So I’m going to explore some tools.

Joe Howard: [00:36:10] What I would like to do with this summit is I would like to stream the summit right into circle that way. That’s how we’re driving new registrations for the community.

But it’s also just an easy registration system. Like I don’t have to like set up a registration, like just go to circle and sign up and then you’ll. Just go to that place when you like, whatever I’ll post the live stream when we do it, and then you’ll be in there. The, the thing I’m thinking about though is kind of what you were talking about.

Like, I guess maybe you could embed like some chat there, but. The kind of, the reason I wanted to do circle community is because it’s a little bit more asynchronous and it’s not like Slack where it’s like a live conversation where if you don’t turn on notifications, you missed all which like happens to me all the time.

And when I do turn on notifications, like too many notifications get out of my face, uh, the asynchronous like comment system. Doesn’t seem to work exactly how I would want it to, for like a live session, you know, do you have to reload it to see the new comments? Like I’d rather, I’d rather have a little chat there.

So I don’t know exactly how I would get that to work. I think I would take a little work, but yeah, I, so I don’t know if you, so maybe you haven’t done any live stream, but. Maybe you’re planning to, if you do, I’d love to know how any like side chat or how the commenting system works around that.

Joe Casabona: [00:37:28] Yeah.

That’s really interesting. Right? Cause again, like when I was going to just do this, like through a private page on my membership site in WordPress, I use Ecamm live for streaming. It’s like amazing. And what’s it called? E E K M live. It’s like super worth the money. Like it just makes live streaming so easy.

And they like actually give you like a little I-frame where you can embed the YouTube chat, right. On a page. So you can basically have the YouTube unlisted video and then the chat underneath. But yeah, I would have figured that in first of all, I’m on the circle homepage right now and like, The first thing you see, right.

If somebody’s doing like a live stream right in, I

Joe Howard: [00:38:05] looked through the documentation and I didn’t see any docs on like ad livestream. So I was like, that’s interesting. Is that like a future thing that they’re maybe they’ll build? Or does it work right

Joe Casabona: [00:38:13] now? Yeah, that’s like super good. Because like, when you create a post, you can, you can embed a video.

Yeah. Or maybe it’s like a certain level. It’s probably a certain level. I’ll have to look at that. I’ve I find I’m probably gonna upgrade pretty quickly to like the next level. Yeah. I haven’t tried it yet, but I’m probably my hope and I’ll test this out right. Is to just embed an unlisted YouTube video that is a live stream and then people can comment on it, but yeah, if they have to re if they have to refresh, then that’s less than ideal.

Right. Um, so we’ll see, um, I’ll dig into this more, cause like it’s weird that they would advertise such a thing. If it’s not possible yet.

Joe Howard: [00:38:54] That’s what I said. I assumed it’s like something you can do with some sort of level. But anyway, I, I also want to talk a little bit about kind of what your goal is with the committee.

I think about like this podcast and. A lot of it is just for me to like, be able to talk with friends and like have a small audience to talk to in the WordPress space. But this podcast doesn’t like necessarily drive a ton of like revenue to WP buffs, like people who are listening know, we just, we just added a little pre-roll to the, to this episode that talks about WP bus, every episode.

And so. People have listened to that. It’s like, I guess like short commercial, but it’s like our podcast. So it’s not like sponsored by this. I don’t know. I don’t feel like it’s that annoying, but we’re like trying to maybe make it, do a little bit more, just like let people know that there are things that they can do that would benefit for growth, WP boss, that kind of stuff.

But with a community, you know, People want to be part of a community that’s like not annoying and people want to be, yeah, there’s no podcast. It’s not annoying enough ton of ads. But anyway, like the, I guess my question is, are you focused at all on like how this can maybe grow your courses or like get people who’ve already bought courses to buy other courses or even drive like new traffic or new community folks or build trusting community?

Or is it really just kind of, I’m still just. Kind of figuring out the screening thing and just trying to make it as cool as possible and like I’ll figure out the, like, whatever monetization of the, of the community afterwards.

Joe Casabona: [00:40:28] Yeah. That’s a, that’s a great question. Cause it’s, it kind of can work both ways, right?

Your community can feed your products or, uh, your products can have the value add of a community. Right. And so I did a little bit of soul searching towards the end of 2020, beginning of 2021. Because of the things that we talked about earlier in the episode, right. Where I don’t have your normal 40 hours of work in a week, I maybe have 24, like maybe 30 at best.

And so like trading hours for dollars does not work for me. Right now. And if we do have more kids, like it’ll work even worse. Right. So you’re really aiming

Joe Howard: [00:41:10] for that four hour workweek, you know? Yeah.

Joe Casabona: [00:41:12] I’m really, you know, I read it a bunch of years ago. It sounded ridiculous. And now I’m like, I can do four hours though.

I’ll just say like Tim Ferriss, his podcast is like four hours. So he’s definitely working more than four hours in a week. Um, but, uh, so. My, I, I went on a little bit of a soul search and I realized a couple of things. First of all, I was selling a membership, a creator courses, which is my online courses site that no one really, I mean, like there’s like 20 people maybe, but like that’s more people buy the courses, all a cart.

They like the lifetime deal better than the subscription. And so my black Friday deal, which I think I sold a whopping one. Lifetime membership for $400 or something like that. Nobody wants to create our courses membership. Right. If they want a course, they’ll buy that specific course. Uh, then, um, then I’m working on rolling out, build some, uh, my, my build something club, right?

The, how I built a membership and I’m like, how am I going to reconcile offering two different memberships that do two very different things. So I decided to. Not kill the membership, but it’s not for sale anymore. So anybody who wanted to buy the membership already had to buy it and you can buy the courses all a cart and you can become a build something club member for $5 a month.

So the, the point of the membership is to add value for people who are joining the build something club. But also I don’t interact as much with my audience as I’d like. And it’s mostly because I never had a really clear way to do that. It’s like Twitter, like reach out on Twitter, but like my DMS are locked down.

My at replies are locked. Like if, if you don’t have a certain follower threshold, I’m not going to see your replies because like I just Twitter aggravates me. So having the community. Is a place where all listeners free and paid can come and interact. Uh, so the, the main goal is maybe value add for the club, but the secondary goal is to really interact with all listeners and then hopefully turn some of those free listeners into paid listeners.

Joe Howard: [00:43:23] Is it really interesting? Cause I, I find like with this podcast, I wish I had ways to interact better with my listeners. Like I say, at the end of every episode, like email us@yogaatwpmrr.com. But like, and if people do, but it’s not like most people, it’s like a few people who like, well, why don’t reach out.

But I think having community one, it’s a great way to interact with your audience. And it gives a lot of, a lot of things back that may not like. Directly be people paying you, but has like really good benefit to maybe help you do that better in whatever you’re doing. So, yeah, Joe, some people may want to join your like monthly club for $5.

You know, if you have a hundred people do that to 500 bucks, like a month, like that’s awesome. You know, that’s. Pretty good for like, you know, just a community you’re running and like hanging out with friends. If I had like a pod, like a WPR community, uh, a lot of my thoughts are like, okay, if I can get some good conversations going, like, that’ll give me some really good topics for future episodes.

Cause I know people are talking about it. So they’ll maybe want to listen to an episode about that or like an easy place to go for people to ask questions so we can do live Q and a episodes on the show and yeah, maybe even a place where I could have. Like I could have you, Joe, Casabona like in my group and then like, we want to do a podcast, sting net, like little space there or whatever.

I don’t know a circle calls it, but I’m just calling it like a little space sort of thing. Yeah. I could have a show in there and I could actually like promote Joe’s casting course in there too, and like send some folks his way. And so that’s another way to like, build good relationships. So I think there’s a lot of like good things you can do around community.

And honestly, at the end of the day, like so much of. Anybody’s job is around community like your clients or your customers or community like the people you team up with and do co-marketing with our community. Like, you know, the WordPress community is definitely a community, right? So there’s, if you can do a good job working within that and.

Trying to just create a cool place for people to hang out. There’s a lot of secondary value you can draw from that purely by just like trying to create a cool thing in the community that, you know, people enjoy being a part of.

Joe Casabona: [00:45:32] Yeah. And that’s the hard part, right? It’s like figuring out. Why people should hang out

Joe Howard: [00:45:37] there.

That’s what I was going to ask you because circle like Facebook group, I think kind of sucks, but like, people are already on Facebook. So like they, they can just be right there in one click of a notification. Right. But you have to drive people to your totally separate. Community, you know what the URL is, community dot, build something.club.

How do you get people there? How do you keep a little bit of that engagement? It’s kind of the, it’s like one of these questions, right. But I’d be interested to hear a little bit about like how you’re trying to grow that. Oh, you’re like driving people back to that URL literally, so they can go and interact.

Cause that seems like a tough part. When I’m thinking about how we’re going to do that.

Joe Casabona: [00:46:14] Yeah. So what, uh, what I’m thinking, what I’ve been bringing. So it’s, it’s been very experimental, right? Cause I mean, at first I thought I would just have forums on the website. Um, and we can talk about that too, if you want.

Like why I decided to not build my own thing, but so far it’s been like, let’s discuss the episode. If you have questions, like head over to the community. But my main call to action on my podcast is sign up for the mailing list, right? Uh, sign up for the mailing list, blah, blah, blah. And I’ve been changing my newsletter a little bit.

It used to be like, here’s a top story. Here’s the content I’ve written. Here’s the recommendation. Now it’s like a little bit more long form. Like in my last one, I wrote about like the importance of niching down and like what I learned from like a Tinder photographer, which is like crazy that like that’s a niche.

And by the way, people pay him like 600 bucks a pop for photos for just Tinder. So like, if you’re worried that like niching down is going to affect your bottom line. 600 bucks for Tinder

Joe Howard: [00:47:11] photos just to bring dogs and cats, food, hang out with, I hear there was like, so whatever, like that’s like the thing, that’s the

Joe Casabona: [00:47:17] thing I have no, I’m gratefully married before Tinder.

Joe Howard: [00:47:22] Thank God. I don’t have to like deal with this ever

Joe Casabona: [00:47:25] again. Um, But, uh, and so what, what I’m doing is I’m getting people onto my mailing list and from my mailing list is how all kinds of parlay the community aspect of it. Right. So what I’m going to start doing soon, probably April, just cause like the first of a month, sounds like the good time to start something and like measure its success so that, you know, Oh, did I start this like two weeks ago or what?

Um, so, uh, at the end, I think at the end of two sections of my mailing list, I’ll say like wanting to discuss this. Join the build something community. And so hopefully that will get people more interested. And then yeah. Doing, adding the live stream aspect in there, I haven’t fully fleshed out my promotion plan yet because I really want to get people into the build something club.

Uh, but right now, like the people who are already paying members have been invited, I’m trying to interact with them. I’m encouraging them to communicate, but that’s, I think, again, that’s another important part of like the founder being there. I really like the smart, passive income community. I’ve been really active in there, but one thing I note like the moderators are amazing.

Like there’s somebody, I think his name is it’s like N O N. But there is, you can’t tell, I can’t tell him I monitor, but it looks like an lot over the, Oh, so I think it’s like noon, maybe. Sorry, noon. If I’m like saying your name wrong, it could be non, but I’m like, he’s there and he’s commenting and he’s liking, uh, I haven’t, I have seen, I think exactly like both sides of the prerecorded videos, maybe one post from Pat and it’s like Pat’s community and I know he’s doing a lot, but.

It’s past community. I think if it’s your community, you should show up. Right. And so I’m trying to show up and comment and add things. Uh, my VA posts some, some of the canned stuff, but I go in there and I comment and stuff like that. So my main goal is to, to experiment a little bit and then start doing what I think are good, actionable steps.

And I actually joined Corey’s community. Uh, to see what he’s doing. Cause I think he’s doing some really cool stuff in his community. It looks really active.

Joe Howard: [00:49:35] Yeah, I know it’s put a lot of, a lot of time and I talked to him also about like how he’s driving stuff. We had a good, good conversation about

Joe Casabona: [00:49:44] that.

I took notes during that episode.

Joe Howard: [00:49:46] Nice to you and me both. I do, like we were saying, and I think that’s actually a good place to wrap up is about experimenting with this stuff, because at the end of the day, it’s like, you can go and listen to Cory’s episode and here’s some best practices that might work, but you have no idea what’s going to work in your community or in your circle.

Yeah. Circle community. Or your course community or whatever, until you try it. And I think that taking it one step at a time and experimenting is, is it’s almost like a fail safe way to eventually get something to work well, because yes, you know, start driving folks to your email list once they’re signed up for email.

Okay. How many people are getting out of the email list. Okay, cool. How do we experiment to increase that? Cool. We got a good flow going in there. Okay. How do we get people to the, the, uh, circle community? Okay. Um, trying different kinds of contents. Oh, okay. I wrote these four articles. This one drove the most.

Oh, this topic was totally unique. Maybe I should write about that kind of stuff. More. Cool. Now we’re improving the conversion rate there. Okay. People are joining my circle community, but they’re not like really coming back, like, okay, how do I do that? Okay. I got to give them, like, I got to do more email. I got to do more like, yeah, we do certain things on certain days or like more engagement.

So there’s so much to experiment with at every step of this. But that’s what it takes. Like if don’t think you’re going to go and just like, get it all perfect. The first time, do some best practices. And what you think is best because. It’s a good thing to do or it sounds awesome. And then experiment with stuff.

So, yeah, Joe, cool. Thanks again for being our man. We talked about man, a ton of stuff today, but let’s finish by telling folks okay. Again, how they can join the circle community, where can they go to listen to the podcast? Where can they go to, and not DMU on Twitter, but where can I go to see your fun tweets?

That kind

Joe Casabona: [00:51:29] of stuff. Yeah. Uh, so, okay, so I’m going to write this down, right? Um, because again, like the, the circle. Invite links are like pretty long and it, I don’t have it. So just anybody can sign up right now.

Joe Howard: [00:51:41] Yeah. People are listening. Just go to the WP, mrr.com/podcast, page and finders episode. And we’ll put it right in the show notes.


Joe Casabona: [00:51:49] it. Yeah. So if you go to build something.club/wp, M R R, that will be, uh, a, uh, a way to sign up for the, uh, The mailing list. I, uh, this’ll be a little bonus for the YouTube people, but my camera just overheated. So you can’t, you can’t see me right now. Um, so build something.club/wp MRR is where you can, uh, get an invite to join the community.

Uh, when this episode goes live, I’ll be sure to post it in the community so we can talk about it there. Uh, Joe is already part of the community. Um, and then if you, if you want to learn more about me, casabona.org is the best place. It has everything I’m working on. And my blog and my social channels, I’ve been really active on Instagram lately.

That’s like the social network that doesn’t aggravate me. Um, and so I’m at J Casabona on that as well.

Joe Howard: [00:52:41] Nice. Most social networks. I just can’t do it. Honestly, I don’t want to do is like somewhat regularly is Reddit. Cause it’s just kind of like. Crazy. It’s crazy in there. I just kind of like, like kind of sit in the chaos a little bit, but that’s it.

That’s my main one, but, uh, yeah. Okay. Joe, last thing I like to do is ask our guests to ask our listeners for a little I, uh, Apple podcast review. So if you wouldn’t mind asking our listeners for that, I appreciate it.

Joe Casabona: [00:53:08] Yes. And I will just add here that Apple is changing their nomenclature from subscribe to follow.

So I will say this. If you liked this episode, be sure to follow on Apple podcasts. And of course, give this show a rating and review because it really does help with the discovery. So the more rating and reviews the show gets, the more people will discover the show.

Joe Howard: [00:53:30] Cool appreciate that. I don’t mean to extend this episode, but just quickly.

Do you know if that is the follow literally the same result as a subscribed? Like just following me, you just subscribe. It’s not like they’re not creating some sort of like social network.

Joe Casabona: [00:53:43] No, there’s a lot of speculation. Right? So an iOS 14.5, uh, the, the language on the button is changing from subscribed to follow.

And, uh, it’s, it’s probably because people see the word subscribe and they think I have to pay for it. Right. Um, so like follow is linguistically a little clearer than, uh, than, than subscribe. However, there’s wild speculation that soon Apple podcasts will allow for paid membership. Of podcasts, much like Twitter and all these other places are doing, but that is wild speculation that nobody has confirmed yet.

So I’m just going to say follow makes more sense to most people than subscribe

Joe Howard: [00:54:23] does. I think that, that makes sense. Cool. Yeah. Also Joe, our, uh, resident, uh, Apple know it all. So anytime something like this happened, I’m always asking Joe, what’s going on with this. So cool. Uh, if you are a new. Listener to the show.

Go ahead and binge some old episodes. Joe is going to be on an episode like 140 something. So we got a ton of old episodes. You can go to WP mrr.com forward slash podcast. Hit search bar search for pricing issues with pricing pricing, hiring checkout, hiring podcasting, or find Joe’s pre Ms. May be your second or third time on the podcast.

I’ve go on.

Joe Casabona: [00:55:01] I know that this is my third time by the number of, uh, Pop culture characters I’ve had to pick. Yeah,

Joe Howard: [00:55:08] totally. Joseph been a regular on the podcast. So, um, yeah, go listen to some old episodes, uh, and feel free to do some bingeing while you’re at it. If you have questions for me on the show, maybe in the future, you should head to the WP MRR circle community, but not yet.

We’re still figuring that out. So just email yell@wpmrr.com and we will get some, your question answered, live on the show. Feel free to follow and leave an Apple podcast review. If you do feel free to leave a comment, uh, so that we know this episode was solid and I can also shoot it to Joe so he can smile.

Someone said, Oh, someone thought someone clever a, you left a review because of me. So WP mrr.com forward slash iTunes. Although we may have to adjust that. Forwarding address. It’s not technically called iTunes anymore, but you can still go to that store. So, uh, that is all for this week on the show, we will be in your podcast players again next Tuesday, Joe.

Thanks again for being on man. It’s been real, absolute

Joe Casabona: [00:56:08] pleasure every time, Joe. Thanks for having

Joe Howard: [00:56:09] me. It’s everyone.

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